Thielicke and Co Type HS tool and cutter grinder

[OxxAndBert]

Picked up this little T&C grinder yesterday.
I can only find one other reference to them online, and that was someone on Practical Machinist asking for info (with no reply).

Here's some details of what I know thus far...

• Likely made in the late 1950's going by the date stamp on what appears to be an unused grinding wheel, and the physical motor styling
• Bears some resemblance to a Deckel D-Bit grinders, but the ways on this one are perpendicular to the spindle (Deckel's are parallel to spindle)
• Has integral coolant facility. There's a very small pump and a reservoir external mounted on the back of the machine, and the coolant pan and drain are part of the main machine casting.
• The main casting sits on a fabricated stand with 3 swing out drawers that use the same key.
• There's a useful wooden shelf around the top of the fabricated base. Has a varnished wooden edging and would be a practical place to put things out of the way of the main work area and coolant etc
• Motor has forward and reverse switching, and 2 motor speeds (selected by belt position on pulleys)
• There's a worm drive in the workhead spindle which can be engaged to give infinite control of position of rotation. Also a toothed indexing arrangement (not sure exactly how that works yet
• Still has what I assume are the original leather bellows covering the round guide ways.

And the obligatory photos:











Steve

[OxxAndBert]

Steve

[matthew_g]

I'm sorry that I can't give you any information, but what I want to say is that looks to be a very very nice machine, well made and will last another 200 years...
Nice score Mate.

[kafie1980]

Saw that on FB market place last week.

Seems like you are going to enjoy researching it.

Enjoy your new toy [emoji2956]

[KBs PensNmore]

Thanks for the write up and pics, Steve, certainly an impressive and well built machine.
With all your equipment, there shouldn't be too much that you can't make now.
Durlach is a borough of the German city of Karlsruhe with a population of roughly 30,000 Even on Google, there's nothing about it, apart from someone on PM wanting to know what sort of collets it uses, with no answers, as far as I could see. Not even on UK lathes, there's not a listing, so GOOD luck finding info on it
PLEASE let us know what you find, if anything?


Kryn

[OxxAndBert]

Thanks for the write up and pics, Steve, certainly an impressive and well built machine.
With all your equipment, there shouldn't be too much that you can't make now.
Kryn

Thanks Kryn.
Unfortunately I haven't managed to get the time or money machines working properly yet. Both seem to have leaks somewhere.....
In the meantime I'm having fun though...

Steve

[KBs PensNmore]

That's the important thing, having fun. At least you'll have plenty to do when you retire, if the wife lets you, that is.

[Reidy41]

It looks like the company still exists
THIELICKE GMBH & CO. WERKZEUG- UND SPEZIALMASCHINEN

Address
Steinkreuzstr. 14

76228 Karlsruhe - Germany

+49 721 492075


The company THIELICKE GMBH & CO. WERKZEUG- UND SPEZIALMASCHINEN, is a Manufacturer/ Producer, founded in 1911, which operates in the Hand tools, non-power industry. It also operates in the Metalworking hand tools, non-power industries. It is based in Karlsruhe, Germany.


In one of my past jobs we had to communicate with overseas countries in a language non of us spoke. We would type out a message and at the start explain we don't speak the language and have used a translation program. That way they have an understanding why the request for information may be poorly worded. At times we would also put the english version as well.

Most times we received the information we required.

It may be worth a question if they have an old manual on file.

Steve

[OxxAndBert]

I’ve had this one “parked” since I got it home.
Bought a new drive belt a couple of months back as the old one was crumbling apart.
Started thinking about getting it running but was concerned about the spindle bearings. What type of are they - plain or rolling? What lubrication do they need?
Answer - I’ve NFI !!

So I started poking around.
Wheel guard and shaft cover come off easily.

There’s a strange lever that moves the inner section of the shaft in and out as you move the lever in its diagonal slot.





Twisting the knob on the lever allows it to be locked in any position along its travel.

No idea of its purpose at this point.
The flange with the 2 holes is smaller than the bore of the wheel hub so can’t perform any clamping when retracted.

Can’t find any sort of spindle lock mechanism.

Pulled out the spare grinding wheels to see if the offered any clues.

Looks like there are 2 sizes of taper.
The wheel currently fitted has the larger taper.




The larger tapers have a threaded section on the headstock side - possibly for retention??

Looking closer at the mounted wheel I can see it’s got a threaded collar.



A C-spanner and a light tap with a hammer releases collar and I can unscrew it (RH thread) and remove the wheel.



With the wheel out of the way it’s obvious that the slightly rusty inner piece of shaft is actually tapered behind the end flange, and looks about the right size to fit the smaller wheel tapers.

The end flange unscrews with a peg spanner (RH thread).



It’s the retainer for the small bore wheels.



One of the spare wheels had a threaded plug in its bore.
Worked out that’s the removal tool (RH thread).



Only slightly closer to confirming the spindle bearing type, but still don’t know what purpose of the sliding inner shaft is.
Only thing that comes to mind is a quick positioning mechanism to allow you to touch off quickly on the work then clamp and start grinding.
If that was the case then why only the inner shaft for the smaller bore wheels??






Steve

[OxxAndBert]

Spent some more time tonight poking at the spindle.

There’s a small spring loaded piece in the pulley end of the spindle.
It has flats on it but turns freely inside the spindle and will cock off to one side if you push it so obviously doesn’t extend far into the shaft.
No idea what its purpose is, but it’s retained by a circlip, so out it comes.
There’s a spring and small plunger behind it (spring is about 70mm long and the plunger is on the end so not visible in this photo)


Pulley has a grub screw so I remove that but the pulley is still solid on the shaft.
Ahhh, there’s a second grub screw too.
About 3mm axial movement in the pulley now but then it goes solid again. It’s definitely not free enough to slide off.

Remove the lever for the weird inner shaft movement. Inner shaft slides back and forward but feels like it’s hitting a stop inside.


Looking in from the pulley end I can see a cross pin, but no obvious way to access it.

Remove the 2 large grub screws in the top of the headstock - one front, one rear.




Maybe the whole spindle comes out as assembly.
Nope…

Remove the grub screws on the small retaining collar on the spindle, and unscrew the collar.
Can see that it bears against something bronze. Looks like a split bush of some sort.



Still no additional movement.
Remove the large collar. Same story - no extra movement, but definitely a large bronze split bush/bearing.



Loosened the matching collar on the front of the headstock and tried to keep turning once it was hard against the wheel retaining collar. Hoping it might act as a puller to extract the spindle.
Nope.

Back to the pulley - it HAS to come off.
With a combination of some penetrant and then wriggling and gentle levering it finally slid off.

Nice German FAG bearing behind it.




Still no additional movement in the spindle though, and it still feels solid when tapped on the end with a hammer and brass drift.
Very conscious of using too much force if there’s still something retaining it, but after having a good look over it again I decide to give it another tap - and hear a tone change.
Finally some movement !!

The spindle together with the inner shaft actuating collar and rear bearing slides forward exposing the 3 tiny screws in the actuating sleeve that hold in a brass thrust collar.
Removing the screws gets access to remove the cross pin though the spindle and inner shaft, and the inner can then be slid out.




The spindle can now be removed.
Photo of the rear bearing and thrust collar. There’s also a proper ball thrust race inside the actuator that I didn’t get a photo of.



Spindle and main bronze bearing look good.




I need to do some research on how to adjust such a bearing and work out a suitable oil.
Any info on that would be much appreciated.

Then clean it all up and re-assemble.

Steve

[kafie1980]

Thanks for the photo essay.

Very useful information if anyone here finds another one.

[OxxAndBert]

Couple of photos I missed yesterday…

First, a disassembled one of the spring loaded piece on the rear of the spindle.
Still have no idea what its purpose is other than perhaps stopping the inner shaft rattling.



Next, the housing for the inner shaft adjustment, with thrust race and retainer for the shaft cross pin.







And lastly the first broken thing I’ve found on the machine.
The motor pivot has a couple of set screws that press on either side of the pivot to stop it rattling around.
Some gorilla has gronked down on them and cracked the side out of the pivot boss.
Will hopefully be able to braze it up but for now that’s a job for ‘Ron.




Steve

[OxxAndBert]

Spindle is all cleaned up and back together.
In regards to adjustment of the bronze bearing, I made sure it was all well lubed with oil before assembly, and although it doesn't free spin like a rolling element bearing I found I could turn it just gripping on the wheel mounting taper with my hand.
From there I just played around adjusting it until I started to feel a very slight increase in drag, then backed off to before that point.
Bit of faffing around as it changes slightly when tightening the front and rear adjusting collars on the main bearing.
I set the thrust collar behind the main bearing in a similar way.
Made sure there was a decent amount of the ISO10 oil in it via the flip-cap oiler (it was starting to drip out of the small drain hole in the bottom of the housing below the bearing), mounted a wheel and gave it a few turns manually before turning it on.
A couple of quick blips on the power to make sure it seemed OK.
Slowly increased the duration of the running while listening for anything weird or any sign of the motor slowing down (which might indicate the bearing was starting to seize).
All was good, and ended up running happily for 10min continuous with only a 15deg increase in temperature of the bearing housing.
And its VERY quiet

As a bonus I found out that the coolant pump runs nicely. Haven't had any coolant in it (and not sure if I'll bother) but at least the pump runs.

Just have to learn how to drive it now!!

Steve