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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by gazza2009au View Post
    You'll be surprised what the Cigweld 140 can do it may have a 1min duty cycle at 140amp's but i have stick welded 10mm plate with 2.5mm gemini rods, this size rod would only require 60-70amp's for 10mm plate i had mine set at 80amp and it was too hot
    I don't know what rod you were using but the welding current limitation there is the electrode - it is too small for the current required to weld 10mm plate. A cut and etch would be interesting to see.


    So if your running 60amp on a 140amp machine that would atlease have a 60% duty cycle i would think, just imagine running rod's one after another for 6 mins on a home job.. i don't think the average joe would be hitting the duty cycle much
    10% at 140 amps equates to 54% at 60A.

    Depending on the electrode, it would be better not to use the Special terminal to maximise the available current. A 140A arc welder would be flat out welding 10mm plate in a single pass.

    Jack

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Ryan View Post
    I don't know what rod you were using but the welding current limitation there is the electrode - it is too small for the current required to weld 10mm plate. A cut and etch would be interesting to see.
    Not at all the case. A 2.5mm electrode will weld 10mm quite effectively using a multi pass technique, better in fact than a 3.2 or 4mm electrode run at too low an amperage. To achieve the same current density as a 2.5mm electrode at 80A, a 3.2mm would require 132A, and a 4mm would need almost 205A.




    10% at 140 amps equates to 54% at 60A.

    Depending on the electrode, it would be better not to use the Special terminal to maximise the available current. A 140A arc welder would be flat out welding 10mm plate in a single pass.
    No welding process other than submerged arc or perhaps a really hot 1.6mm gas shielded flux core will weld a 10MM fillet in one pass, and submerged arc would be the only commonly used process with half a hope of pulling off a 10mm butt weld in one pass.



    Jack
    Amperage has nowhere near the effect that most people think it does when it comes to producing a sound weld. You can probably thank overzealous salesmen and their sales literature for that. I can recall one such document put out by CIG many moons ago, proclaiming a Transarc 400 stick welder as being capable of laying a single pass 15mm fillet weld. I would challenge CIG's best demonstrator to produce one such fillet that held up to any form of testing.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Robbers View Post
    Amperage has nowhere near the effect that most people think it does when it comes to producing a sound weld. You can probably thank overzealous salesmen and their sales literature for that. I can recall one such document put out by CIG many moons ago, proclaiming a Transarc 400 stick welder as being capable of laying a single pass 15mm fillet weld. I would challenge CIG's best demonstrator to produce one such fillet that held up to any form of testing.
    I did say "in a single pass" and, to be honest, I would not be trying it with that machine.

    It takes a certain amount of energy to fuse metal, energy being power * time. If you use a small amount of energy for a long time you can fuse metal, so long as the metal is small enough in volume not to conduct the heat away too fast and not so thin so as the HAZ buckles the work.

    Better to use a higher power over a smaller time. In an ARC welder, you set a higher current to increase the power so it would seem there is a direct relationship between power and current.

    There are physical limits and other constraints but to carry a larger current and have the flux do its job, a larger diameter electrode is required.

    I wonder if someone who could lay a defect free single pass 15mm fillet weld would be a salesman.

    Jack

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Ryan View Post
    I did say "in a single pass" and, to be honest, I would not be trying it with that machine.

    It takes a certain amount of energy to fuse metal, energy being power * time. If you use a small amount of energy for a long time you can fuse metal, so long as the metal is small enough in volume not to conduct the heat away too fast and not so thin so as the HAZ buckles the work.

    Better to use a higher power over a smaller time. In an ARC welder, you set a higher current to increase the power so it would seem there is a direct relationship between power and current.

    There are physical limits and other constraints but to carry a larger current and have the flux do its job, a larger diameter electrode is required.

    I wonder if someone who could lay a defect free single pass 15mm fillet weld would be a salesman.

    Jack
    I think you may have missed the comments within the quoted text that I wrote in blue. Long story short, there is no welding process available to the average user that will weld 10mm in one pass, be it a butt weld or a fillet. Anything over 3mm will require some degree of weld preparation for a single sided butt weld, and 6mm is pretty much the limit for a single pass fillet weld with welding processes available to the serious home user.
    Larger electrodes do not produce stronger welds, all they really do is allow the weld to be performed quicker, which does have some benefits as far as less restarts, and potentially less distortion, but makes no real difference to overall strength provided the welder can competently perform restarts.
    Current density is a better measure of welding capacity than outright amperage, and as noted in my blue comments, a 2.5mm electrode @ 80A will match a 3.2mm @ 130A, or a 4mm @ 200A. If you were to lay a weld on 10mm plate with a 2.5mm electrode @ 80A, a 3.2mm @ 130, and a 4mm @ 200 using the same electrode type for each, and then macro etch the weld, you would likely find that penetration depth would be substantively equal between the three, although as electrode diameter increased, the bead width would widen.
    As far as anyone laying a sound 15mm fillet in one pass using anything other than Submerged Arc - it ain't happening.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Robbers View Post
    I think you may have missed the comments within the quoted text that I wrote in blue. Long story short, there is no welding process available to the average user that will weld 10mm in one pass, be it a butt weld or a fillet. Anything over 3mm will require some degree of weld preparation for a single sided butt weld, and 6mm is pretty much the limit for a single pass fillet weld with welding processes available to the serious home user.
    Larger electrodes do not produce stronger welds, all they really do is allow the weld to be performed quicker, which does have some benefits as far as less restarts, and potentially less distortion, but makes no real difference to overall strength provided the welder can competently perform restarts.
    Current density is a better measure of welding capacity than outright amperage, and as noted in my blue comments, a 2.5mm electrode @ 80A will match a 3.2mm @ 130A, or a 4mm @ 200A. If you were to lay a weld on 10mm plate with a 2.5mm electrode @ 80A, a 3.2mm @ 130, and a 4mm @ 200 using the same electrode type for each, and then macro etch the weld, you would likely find that penetration depth would be substantively equal between the three, although as electrode diameter increased, the bead width would widen.
    As far as anyone laying a sound 15mm fillet in one pass using anything other than Submerged Arc - it ain't happening.

    Are we talking cross purposes?

    I said that too much current was being for the size of an electrode. To do so requires that you ignore the manufacturer's specifications and probably compromise the ability of the flux to do its job.

    I also said (assuming a single pass) that insufficient current was being used for the thickness of the base metal. I did not add that that thickness would require multiple passes - perhaps I should have.

    Yes, you can use multiple passes with a small electrode to weld thicker material but as the material thickness increases, the probability of weld faults increases. Much better to use more current and a larger electrode. Naturally, you would not use a large electrode with too low a current as penetration is reduced and again, the probability of weld faults increases.

    Personally, and given the opportunity, I would prefer to weld 10mm plate with one pass per side of a double V using MMA or GMAW (spray). Otherwise a single V with two (or so) passes. Either way, hot and prompt - but that's just me and there are zillions of different scenarios, many of which require an unfavourable position.

    Jack

  6. #21
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    Default Re: 80V

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Ryan View Post
    Yes, but what's "special"?

    6010 needs a higher voltage but is DC and the AC machines had a special position as well.

    Hardfacing?

    It's almost like the marketing department named it because it couldn't understand what the Engineer said.

    Jack
    Iíve been in contact with Peerless today digging into a bit more in regard to the machine, as soon as I get an accurate answer Iíll update here, though what I can stipulate (I may be wrong here correct me if so) is that the 50v for general welding is connected to 2 coils which is running at the 50v and range up to 130amps fixed 20% duty cycle as per machine model plate when you connect the 80V terminal it being an AC transformer is going to output the same input as the 50V only because itís only running off a single coil the voltage increases to keep things balanced as there is less resistance from less copper to pass through in the coils as oppose to the 50, looking a bit further into it last night I saw a video on voltage vs amperage in AC transformers and the rule of thumb was for a 50hz and 60hz to output the same 7.6(I think) v/hz European/American standard for motors the increased amperage per 10hz was .2, so if my understanding is correct the 80v will burn with better conduction and potentially increase the amperage output x 0.6 so 100 50V would be 160 on 80V, again this is only guessing at this point and Iím awaiting response from peerless higher ups, I will also have a chat with some electrical savvy individuals and update and correct any incorrect information here as Iím only at surface level understanding of how the coils work with AC transformers, what I do know is that you cannot create more from less and the 2 coils connected to the 50V and singular coil connected to the 80v has to have a big part of how the system operates so thatís where Iím focusing my attention.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alec View Post
    Iíve been in contact with Peerless today digging into a bit more in regard to the machine, as soon as I get an accurate answer Iíll update here, though what I can stipulate (I may be wrong here correct me if so) is that the 50v for general welding is connected to 2 coils which is running at the 50v and range up to 130amps fixed 20% duty cycle as per machine model plate when you connect the 80V terminal it being an AC transformer is going to output the same input as the 50V only because itís only running off a single coil the voltage increases to keep things balanced as there is less resistance from less copper to pass through in the coils as oppose to the 50, looking a bit further into it last night I saw a video on voltage vs amperage in AC transformers and the rule of thumb was for a 50hz and 60hz to output the same 7.6(I think) v/hz European/American standard for motors the increased amperage per 10hz was .2, so if my understanding is correct the 80v will burn with better conduction and potentially increase the amperage output x 0.6 so 100 50V would be 160 on 80V, again this is only guessing at this point and Iím awaiting response from peerless higher ups, I will also have a chat with some electrical savvy individuals and update and correct any incorrect information here as Iím only at surface level understanding of how the coils work with AC transformers, what I do know is that you cannot create more from less and the 2 coils connected to the 50V and singular coil connected to the 80v has to have a big part of how the system operates so thatís where Iím focusing my attention.
    Thanks Alec.

    I think the best answers would come from the designers on those old transformer welding machines. An "electrical" person wouldn't be much help - welding transformers are less ideal than most in that they have a high magnetising current and significant flux leakage to produce "droop".

    Basically, the transformer secondary is tapped to give a low voltage output and a higher voltage output. The higher voltage (special) has a lower maximum current - there are generally two scales on the machine. The higher voltage gives a better start on some electrodes but then does not have the full output current available.

    I am curious to know what the "special" electrodes were that these machines were designed for. 6011 on AC required a higher voltage but many of the machines with a "special" terminal were DC.

    Anyway, just curious.

    Jack

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