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Thread: Lathe identification
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22nd Oct 2019, 05:47 PM #1Saw dust maker!
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Lathe identification
G'day all <img src="https://metalworkforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smilie" smilieid="1" class="inlineimg"><br>As the title suggests, I'm trying to ID my lathe that I just started to restore a couple of days ago...<br>I thought maybe some guru's here could help out with my thoughts.<br>My leanings are toward it being a Hercus for 2 reasons - 1) the shape of the headstock casting, and 2) the style of motor mount/belt tensioner, but there's a few other things that throws the spanner in the works and gets me baffled. First, the apron is a little different to what I can find on the web and second, it's a flat bed with a gap.<br>The only number that I can find that makes any sense to the ID is a "C48" stamped in the bed at the right/back position on the bed top, which would seem to make it a Model 'C' from 1940. The other number is a "DA3057" stamped in the front of the bed, just where the switch is mounted, which makes no sense for a serial number (that I can see, anyway)<br>Pictures speak more than words, so here's a few I took just before I started this project... Love to hear anyone's thoughts on what it is!<br><br>(I actually know the history of this lathe pretty well, back until about 1970... prior to that it would be an educated guess)<br><br>Thanks in advance, John<br><br><img src="https://metalworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=382997&stc=1" attachmentid="382997" alt="" id="vbattach_382997" class="previewthumb"><img src="https://metalworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=382998&stc=1" attachmentid="382998" alt="" id="vbattach_382998" class="previewthumb"><img src="https://metalworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=382996&stc=1" attachmentid="382996" alt="" id="vbattach_382996" class="previewthumb"><img src="https://metalworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=382995&stc=1" attachmentid="382995" alt="" id="vbattach_382995" class="previewthumb"><br><br>
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23rd Oct 2019, 12:52 AM #2Senior Member
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Speak English! I don't understand "computer speak!"
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23rd Oct 2019, 06:18 AM #3Saw dust maker!
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I've no idea what happened to my text in the original posting!!!
Here's what I first jotted down, re-edited to makes sense
G'day all
As the title suggests, I'm trying to ID my lathe that I just started to restore a couple of days ago...
I thought maybe some guru's here could help out with my thoughts.
My leanings are toward it being a Hercus for 2 reasons - 1) the shape of the headstock casting, and 2) the style of motor mount/belt tensioner, but there's a few other things that throws the spanner in the works and gets me baffled. First, the apron is a little different to what I can find on the web and second, it's a flat bed with a gap.
The only number that I can find that makes any sense to the ID is a "C48" stamped in the bed at the right/back position on the bed top, which would seem to make it a Model 'C' from 1940. The other number is a "DA3057" stamped in the front of the bed, just where the switch is mounted, which makes no sense for a serial number (that I can see, anyway)
Pictures speak more than words, so here's a few I took just before I started this project... Love to hear anyone's thoughts on what it is!
(I actually know the history of this lathe pretty well, back until about 1970... prior to that it would be an educated guess)
Thanks in advance, John
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23rd Oct 2019, 09:58 PM #4Senior Member
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There are lots and lots of South Bend clones. See Tony Griffith's Lathes UK web site.
I have a "General" that he does not list, and a No Name / No Serial number lathe as well - much like yours.
I read a story some time ago that Geo Sheraton was known to sell the odd lathe on a Saturday afternoon from his home (I think) that had no serial numbers! Maybe you have one of these.
Odd that you have a gap bed lathe, and all the Hercus style lathes are not gap bed lathes, and the bed is flat - like a Myford.
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24th Oct 2019, 03:26 AM #5Golden Member
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My guess is that it is of UK, Australian, or just possibly German origin. The flat ways were uncommon on American lathes, except for the very lightly built and cheap Atlas lathes and their clones, so this probably rules out the South Bend and its clones.
The flat ways were common on lathes of UK and Australian manufacture, as were the gap bed with no filler piece, e.g. Britannia and Colchester (UK) and Mars and Brackenbury Austin (Aus), but none of these that I could find bear much similarity to your lathe other than the bed features. After WW1 a lot of smallish German made lathes were rebadged and were sold in the UK market, so some of these would inevitably have found their way to Australia.
What threads are used on your lathe, Whitworth/BSF, UNC/UNF, or metric? This might help to identify the country of origin, which will at least narrow down a search of the Lathes + Machine Tool Archive website, probably the best chance of identifying it unless someone on the Forum recognises it from your photos.
Frank.
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24th Oct 2019, 09:28 AM #6Saw dust maker!
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Thanks for the replies and ideas... I wondered if it was an 'oddball' clone of something, but again, there were a few pointers to it being a Hercus.
I've been through the lathes UK website for clues with no real evidence of anything (Great website! Lot's of grand old machinery there!)
Anyway, found this picture when I was reading the Hercus 50 year book on Australian Metal Working Hobbyist site, and that's exactly what I have, including what looks like the same cast iron legs.
The tail stock is slightly different, but it's a gap bed, single lead screw and the same apron design. It's hard to see, but even the tool holder looks the same.
Lathe Picture.JPG
The caption in on the picture says "5 inch center lathe Circa 1939", so that would be consistent to what I think is the serial number 'C48' and a 1940 date.
Thanks for your ideas and suggestions!
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5th Nov 2019, 12:42 PM #7australian metalworking hobbyist
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Hi John,
It could be an early hercus 8" or 10" flat bed lathe but I doubt it would have been later than 1939 as they started the vee bed models in 1939 and discontinued the flat bed. It's a shame I couldn't find any better photos than the one you got from the website, it isn't clear enough to know for sure.
Mal
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5th Nov 2019, 03:39 PM #8Saw dust maker!
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Thanks for your input Mal, it's just a little more confusing for me now!
I thought I had it nailed to a 1940 Hercus based on your website picture... mine is definitely the same look, and your picture is the only one I've seen with a gap bed in that size.
The swing I measured is 10" over the bed, 14" over the gap and the face plate I have is 12" diameter, plus I have a really nice 6 1/2" Taylors 3-jaw chuck with inside and outside jaws.
It's quite possible that it's earlier than 1940 and I'm just guessing the date based on the "C48" stamped on the bed. The company that owned it would have purchased it new (probably from McPhersons in Melbourne) and they started business in 1870 so I would guess that it was the original lathe that the fitters used for day-to-day machining.
By the time I left that company in about 1986, they had 6 lathes and the workshop had more than doubled in size to around an acre of roof area. And that was JUST the workshop size! (They also had a still-in-use steam boiler for heating requirements in production)
Anyway, thanks for the suggestions, I'll keep pondering what I have and maybe I'll get lucky!
I'll post a progress picture or two of the restore when I get some on the camera...
BTW, I thought they started making the cast iron bed lathes in 1939 and before that they were bar beds?
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5th Nov 2019, 04:11 PM #9australian metalworking hobbyist
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They started with Bar bed then went to the flat bed up to the start of WWII when the vee beds became necessary for the war effort. I would think the last of your style should have been sold before the end of 1939, I think the flat beds go back to 1936 but was unable to confirm that. The flat beds where a copy of another UK machine I think, the brand escapes me at the moment. Careful with the lathes UK site when it comes to Hercus, although it is a great site there are some errors in the chronology of the Hercus machines, to be expected with the lack of info available, Tony Griffiths has done a great job collecting so much information. I get the bit about the number on the bed but they are a different number range to the vee beds.
Mal
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5th Nov 2019, 05:36 PM #10Saw dust maker!
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That's interesting... I haven't seen any reference to that numbering allocation (re: flat bed/prism bed) before now, something to remember, thanks.
With all your info, I can at least narrow it down to a range of dates - 1936 to 1939. At least it gives me an 'idea' of the vintage.
I guess that you at least agree that it is actually a Hercus, because I'm pretty convinced that it is, and that's primarily what I was trying to find out - the manufacturer.
The UK lathe site is fantastic... Some of those old machines are great and yeah, he's put together a LOT of information!
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5th Nov 2019, 07:15 PM #11Senior Member
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There is mention of the Hercus Portass clones in this old thread - I think there was another but can't find it.
This one was thought to be 1941 - ser# b924.
https://metalworkforums.com/f189/t20...ng-information
I did find the other one in the Woodworking archive - that is ser# B253
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f189/...hercus+portassLast edited by Ray-s; 5th Nov 2019 at 07:28 PM. Reason: Updated links
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6th Nov 2019, 08:16 AM #12Saw dust maker!
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Thanks Ray, there's a lot of similarities in those pictures too, especially the half-nut lever. That's always been the main contention when I say 'Hercus' and why I usually say "Nahhh, can't be"... the layout/design of the apron is just too different to the standard Hercus style. The Portass seems pretty right though.
Interestingly, I've been trying to figure out the screw gears I have and match them to any thread charts I can find, but none of my teeth numbers match up with any of the charts values I've seen (Not even close!), but at the bottom of the WWF thread, there's a picture of a thread chart that matches exactly my gear collection. It appears I'm missing 20 & 35, but other than that, they all check out.
(One mystery solved? Maybe? )
The thing that bugs me on the lathes shown in the other threads is the headstock design... they seem a little more light duty than what I have. That could be just a design change during production, because the general shape is still right.
Something else that bugs me is that all the headstock castings I've seen, seem to have a cast spigot to the side where the tumbler arm locks in. This one is direct into the headstock. Another mystery! (and as far as I can tell, the arm is the only piece I'm missing on this lathe)
Anyway, here's a couple of pictures of 'so far'. Basically, stripped, cleaned, painted and now I'm slowly re-assembling. There's only 2 sets of numbers stamped into the castings that I can find, plus single digits stamped into various parts. ie: '7' in the saddle components, '5' in the tailstock (I couldn't find any others, but they might be there as production ID or something).
I know Mal said the numbers were all different, but it's all I've got!
Not exactly original colours... but hey, it's all I could get in a spray can! (Besides, this lathe has been unloved for soooo long, it needs to be bright and happy for a change! )
IMG_0454.jpg IMG_0456.jpg IMG_0457.jpg IMG_0461.jpg IMG_0460.jpg
Num1.jpg Num2.jpg
Hope you enjoy!
(Edit: I was reading various posts that mention tailstock numbers, so I had a cleanup and another look on mine... there is a "15" on the base, and another on the tailstock casting beneath the handle)
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6th Nov 2019, 12:57 PM #13Golden Member
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Is your leadscrew 8TPI pitch, and gear tooth numbers increasing in five tooth steps? If so the Brackenbury and Austin thread chart should suit your lathe. I can send a copy if you think it would be useful. The original gearset had: 2x20T, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 and 65.
I just looked at the chart in the old Woodwork Forums thread. The original B&A gearset did not include the 52T and 63T gears, but gives alternatives for the two imperial threads requiring these, so all the common TPI threads from 8 TPI to, I think 48TPI (except 19 TPI and 27 TPI, both being pipe threads), can be cut with the original gearset.
Since I don't have the 63T gear for cutting metric threads I made a 37T/47T conversion gear and a couple of other special gears to allow cutting the ISO metric pitches from 0.4 to 3.5 mm. The Woodwork Forums metric chart looks easier and more simple, but misses out on several ISO pitches.
The Myford metric chart, using the 63T gear, post 10 in this thread:
https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/for....asp?th=113302
gives the gear positions for the ISO pitches and some non ISO pitches as well.
Frank.
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6th Nov 2019, 02:37 PM #14Senior Member
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John, that tumbler gear set-up looks to be very similar to the Rexman ( another old Aussie one inspired by Portass I think).
Here is a photo I have from one a friend has that is apart at the moment so I could get some more detailed photos if that would help?
IMG_0278_1.jpg
The other thing that that might help with missing change gears these days is 3D printing.
I have been using these 3D printed change gears on my old Seneca Falls 9" machine for metric conversion (63T/64T & 50T) and they work surprisingly well.
IMG_2688.jpg
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6th Nov 2019, 02:41 PM #15Saw dust maker!
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Thanks Frank, most of my confusion with the gear set is the fact that I don't have them all... and I don't know what's missing.
At the moment, gears are not top of the list in the rebuild because I don't have the sleeves for mounting or any of the woodruff keys, nuts or tumbler handle. All will need to be made up before I can make concrete sense of everything.
The only definite thing I know is the spindle is 30 tooth, and I think the 2 tumblers are 30's as well, driving a 25 tooth (which I would call the stud gear). Straight away I get a 1.2:1 ratio that needs to be accounted for.
My set has 2x30, 1 each of 25,45,50,52,55,60 & 63. The leadscrew is 8 tpi, so I would think that any 8 tpi chart would be ok - except for that darned 1.2:1 ratio!
The first thing I need to do when this is all back together is get a tumbler arm made in wood and get a casting from that.
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