Thread: Loss of skills and dumbing down of trades.

Having somewhat derailed the thread on repairing an air con unit with a discussion about modern trends in trades, we'd best make the move to a new thread like Chris suggested.
I do agree in part with Chris Parks that certain skills have probably gone the way of the dodo for valid reasons, after all, there's not too much call for forge welding blacksmith style. An example of what I mean regarding the dumbing down of trades would be the way my trade of Boilermaker Welder has regressed. A very large number of the current crop have no idea unless it involves MIG welding pre cut parts made from RHS to a fully developed CAD drawing package. No idea of how to weld or repair castings, straighten using heat or weld anything more exotic than 350 grade steel. I had the misfortune of working with one "tradesman" that didn't even know how to light an oxy torch, let alone cut with it.
Yes, the world has moved forward and I too love technology in the form of laser profile cutters and CNC fabrication equipment, but how many workshops have all the mega dollar gear? Too often I see blank looks when "tradesmen" are asked to develop and fabricate a lobster back or square to round transition. Pipeline welding has had some very interesting developments as far as welding processes go, but it still takes a skilled operator to drive them in many cases.
Maybe I was just lucky in doing my apprenticeship in a small business that catered for a diverse clientele? I was exposed to cast iron repairs, heavy equipment repairs, field installation of irrigation pipelines and design and manufacture of machinery for the rural and hard rock mining sectors, not to mention I had the benefit of an employer that valued post trade education and highly skilled TAFE teachers that put up with me asking numerous questions and soaking up their knowledge. I just don't see the same passion in apprentices these days.
The car industry has definitely changed as far as the longevity of components and the balance between rebuilding or replacing has certainly shifted toward replacement in many cases. Having said that, the two engine machine shops in my nearest city have a substantial backlog of work, so somebody is still rebuilding a lot of engines. In the heavy equipment field though, there is far greater call for rebuilding, repairing and making do as component costs are far higher and availability often lower. I recall one job that I did which was repairing the hydraulic oil cooler off a cable logging machine. This machine was only a few years old, I.E. a current model from the manufacturer, and a replacement oil cooler was a minimum 6 months wait out of Canada. Not too many people have a spare cable machine sitting around in case of breakdown, and you can't just shut a logging coupe down for 6 months waiting on parts. Enter a workshop with tradesmen that can apply their knowledge in order to produce a solution. The manufacturer said that the cooler could not be repaired. We did it. I don't consider myself some super tradesman for that either, I just applied the trade skills and fundamentals.
I certainly take your point Chris, that many transmissions are a return to manufacturer proposition, particularly AMT and CVT models, but can a mechanic really call themselves a mechanic if they don't know the basic procedure to set up a differential? I'm finding mechanics that have no idea how to remove a snapped bolt or stud for example.
Trades seem more about having the right brand tools and the right brand work gear than actually learning all you can about your chosen vocation and the standards of pride in your work have definitely slipped.
Not all tradesmen are afflicted and I know some absolutely magic individuals who work to the highest standards, but they are seemingly becoming the exception.

I agree whole heartedly with what you're saying Karl. Mechanics are now replacement parts specialist, or technicians is how they prefer to be called, as are a lot of other trades.
Give a new bloke a pre computer misfiring engine, and he's in big trouble, no idea where to start to look.
Also "standards of pride in your work have definitely slipped", we have several blokes here that call themselves tradesmen, the quality of their work is atrocious, in comparison with what was taught in years gone by.
Kryn

Originally Posted by KBs PensNmore

Give a new bloke a pre computer misfiring engine, and he's in big trouble, no idea where to start to look.

Probably Kryn, but when was the last time they built a car without an EMC? I'm going to say at least two decades ago. For every young buck who knows nothing about "old tech" engines there'll be an old bloke who's clueless about engine computers.

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

Having somewhat derailed the thread on repairing an air con unit with a discussion about modern trends in trades, we'd best make the move to a new thread like Chris suggested.
I do agree in part with Chris Parks that certain skills have probably gone the way of the dodo for valid reasons, after all, there's not too much call for forge welding blacksmith style. An example of what I mean regarding the dumbing down of trades would be the way my trade of Boilermaker Welder has regressed. A very large number of the current crop have no idea unless it involves MIG welding pre cut parts made from RHS to a fully developed CAD drawing package. No idea of how to weld or repair castings, straighten using heat or weld anything more exotic than 350 grade steel. I had the misfortune of working with one "tradesman" that didn't even know how to light an oxy torch, let alone cut with it.
Yes, the world has moved forward and I too love technology in the form of laser profile cutters and CNC fabrication equipment, but how many workshops have all the mega dollar gear? Too often I see blank looks when "tradesmen" are asked to develop and fabricate a lobster back or square to round transition. Pipeline welding has had some very interesting developments as far as welding processes go, but it still takes a skilled operator to drive them in many cases.
Maybe I was just lucky in doing my apprenticeship in a small business that catered for a diverse clientele? I was exposed to cast iron repairs, heavy equipment repairs, field installation of irrigation pipelines and design and manufacture of machinery for the rural and hard rock mining sectors, not to mention I had the benefit of an employer that valued post trade education and highly skilled TAFE teachers that put up with me asking numerous questions and soaking up their knowledge. I just don't see the same passion in apprentices these days.
The car industry has definitely changed as far as the longevity of components and the balance between rebuilding or replacing has certainly shifted toward replacement in many cases. Having said that, the two engine machine shops in my nearest city have a substantial backlog of work, so somebody is still rebuilding a lot of engines. In the heavy equipment field though, there is far greater call for rebuilding, repairing and making do as component costs are far higher and availability often lower. I recall one job that I did which was repairing the hydraulic oil cooler off a cable logging machine. This machine was only a few years old, I.E. a current model from the manufacturer, and a replacement oil cooler was a minimum 6 months wait out of Canada. Not too many people have a spare cable machine sitting around in case of breakdown, and you can't just shut a logging coupe down for 6 months waiting on parts. Enter a workshop with tradesmen that can apply their knowledge in order to produce a solution. The manufacturer said that the cooler could not be repaired. We did it. I don't consider myself some super tradesman for that either, I just applied the trade skills and fundamentals.
I certainly take your point Chris, that many transmissions are a return to manufacturer proposition, particularly AMT and CVT models, but can a mechanic really call themselves a mechanic if they don't know the basic procedure to set up a differential? I'm finding mechanics that have no idea how to remove a snapped bolt or stud for example.
Trades seem more about having the right brand tools and the right brand work gear than actually learning all you can about your chosen vocation and the standards of pride in your work have definitely slipped.
Not all tradesmen are afflicted and I know some absolutely magic individuals who work to the highest standards, but they are seemingly becoming the exception.

Hi Karl,
I agree completely with all the points you made above and believe when you start to break it down it comes back to time and money management attitude on big business commercial outlooks.

Those connected with setting up training curriculum look at those skills highlighted above and can only apply a rigid commercially viable formula which dictates commercial big business repair model . These people are unable to separate throwing the baby out with the bath water methods of replace rather than repair. Replace the diff rather than remove and replace the broken bolt in the diff.
Despite smaller business employing the greater part of apprentices this nonsense still persists.

It gets back to the those smaller employers re setting the training curriculums to reflect their needs.The problem is that industry and particularly smaller operators are still happy to let big business to call the setting of the suitable curriculums. Until that happens not much will change.

Grahame

Just wait until EVs start to make their presence more obvious. If I was a mechanically minded 13 year today and maybe thinking which way to go work-wise I'd be looking at getting into EVs rather than ICE vehicles.I'd be leaving the ICEs to the old guys.

My Italian grandfather was a blacksmith cutting his teeth in WWI when he was 16, shoeing and handling army mules. During the 20's and 30's he shoed horses, mules and bullocks and even during WW2 he was able to keep his business going because most poor farmer still use bullock drays. After WW2 trucks became more readily available and 3 of his sons signified they did not want to keep the business going by escaping to Brazil and Australia. He died in 1956 of a stomach ulcer somewhat disappointed that the forge was not being used. The forge is still in an old building in the 2 acre lot behind the old family home - no gear or tools left unfortunately just lots of old shoe nails amongst the gravel in the back yard.

A few years back several of the power points at the back of the house stopped working and I'd had a go at sourcing the problem and isolated it to the the wiring in the ceiling cavity in that part of the house. Because this required working in a very restricted section of the house ceiling cavity, rather than crawl around up there (I probably wouldn't even fit in the space) I decided to get the son of a work colleague who had just finished his apprenticeship and set up his sparky business to have a go at it. I was really impressed at the systematic way he went about solving the problem - he did not assume anything I had told him, and checked everything himself. His business name was "Tidy Electrics" and he was indeed very tidy and a bit annoyed that I had got out our vacuum cleaner to clean up around a power point he had removed to source the problem. These guys give me some faith in that the world is still going to carry on OK and the sun will continue to come up in the mornings.

Originally Posted by BobL

These guys give me some faith in that the world is still going to carry on and the sun will continue to come up.

Take your optimism and be gone Bob! There's no place for it around here!

Originally Posted by KBs PensNmore

I agree whole heartedly with what you're saying Karl. Mechanics are now replacement parts specialist, or technicians is how they prefer to be called, as are a lot of other trades.
Give a new bloke a pre computer misfiring engine, and he's in big trouble, no idea where to start to look.
Also "standards of pride in your work have definitely slipped", we have several blokes here that call themselves tradesmen, the quality of their work is atrocious, in comparison with what was taught in years gone by.
Kryn

Kryn, I employed apprentices in days gone by and I can assure you that their attitude to work is no different now to then. What happens is twofold, their attitude at school where they did nothing more than they had to transfers to their job and to compound that women, alcohol and having a good time take over their life. Very few have the ambition to build a career only wanting to turn up for work when they feel like it and get paid. None of that has changed in over 50 years of my working life and I doubt it ever will.

We have to get over the fact that working on pre-historic technology is not what they do because they never see it and never will. Why would a person training today want to fix a car that basically does not exist in mainstream motoring and is only seen in enthusiast's areas of interest. Those that want to work on stuff like that commonly seen in boats, tractors, forklifts etc need that training but no one working in any dealer or workshop has seen a carby for years because the cars no longer exist. I get that you live in a rural area and small motors and some old agricultural equipment needs work but in my world they don't exist and haven't for many years. If I was to turn the question around and ask why you have not taken the time to learn modern technology because you can't repair a modern car why would that be? After all there are no cars with carbies anymore and if you get stranded or had to help someone how would you diagnose the problem?

When Master P. started working we had to buy him a tool kit and you know what wasn't in that, any 1/2" sockets of any description and even now he has only three or four for very specific jobs because to work on a modern car with 1/2" is simply impossible. All the apprentices who bought 1/2" have never used them except on some under car suspension work when that occasionally happens. Methods and needs change but just because we did something does not mean the knowledge is needed today or even useful. My job I did an apprenticeship for no longer exists so I don't need that knowledge and I wasted 5 years of my life and training someone to work on stuff that for all practical purposed does not exist is a waste of time and resources. I learned how to weld aluminium with an Oxy torch, totally wasted today and I hope it is never needed.

Not sure where I aquired it but I had a trade book on plumbing printed in 1903, it was a large well bound book and in perfect condition so I gifted it to a small plumbing firm that had done a lot of work for me when I was in realestate, the idea being to put it on a shelf as a display piece to show what plumbing used to be like. A few weeks later I ran across the owner of the plumbing firm, he had shown the book to his apprentices, they were dumfounded at the range and depth of skills required of a plumber in the early 1900's, the owner said the new apprentices will probably never get to fire up an oxy or silver solder - and that the trade had been dumbed down not because today's young people are lazy or dumber but by the introduction of new and advanced methods all designed to save time and money.

Originally Posted by jack620

Take you're optimism and be gone Bob! There's no place for it around here!

I worked with young (17+ years old) people at uni most of my life and was constantly impressed by enough of them to give me some hope but I also realise they were a fairly small set of people in teh overall scheme of things. However, when he was about 14 I was quite worried of my son's generation (ie work ethic, attitude, persistence, and their music!). Funnily enough what turned my attitude to their music around was when he convinced me to take him and a couple of mates to a Radiohead concert. It took me a few musical numbers for me to get my head around it but then I realized how good it was. Some of the other things took a while to get going but now I'm not worried. In some ways I'm thankful they are still prepared to tidy up our mistakes.

We had a really good mechanic servicing our vehicles for about 15 years but unfortunately he retired so we tried dealers and a few other mechanics but they were either over priced, sloppy, or too rough and ready. A couple of years back we found a young guy (~35 years old) who has ADHD and runs his own business. He's a bit intense face to face and the prattle is hard to take but there's no doubt he's good at his job. He starts work at ~5:30am every day and is there till 5:30pm. He only replaces parts when absolutely necessary and all replaced parts are discussed in detail on picking up vehicles. Best of all he's very well priced.

Originally Posted by familyguy

Not sure where I aquired it but I had a trade book on plumbing printed in 1903, it was a large well bound book and in perfect condition so I gifted it to a small plumbing firm that had done a lot of work for me when I was in realestate, the idea being to put it on a shelf as a display piece to show what plumbing used to be like. A few weeks later I ran across the owner of the plumbing firm, he had shown the book to his apprentices, they were dumfounded at the range and depth of skills required of a plumber in the early 1900's, the owner said the new apprentices will probably never get to fire up an oxy or silver solder - and that the trade had been dumbed down not because today's young people are lazy or dumber but by the introduction of new and advanced methods all designed to save time and money.

So just because the plumbing trade has changed eliminating some pretty poor practises, anyone remember red lead, cutting threads in gal pipe that started rusting before it was in the ground because the gal was removed by cutting the threads he reckons the trade has been dumbed down. You have got to wonder about the thinking of some people.

Chris when I did my plumbing apprenticeship we had to hammer out lead sheets to them form into pipe. At least we had the odd day off to watch the gladiator contests. These young whippersnappers these days with their steel pipe do not know how good they have it.

The days of a plumber using a torch are few in number. However it is a useful skill to have when an unfortunate person manages to find a metal pipe with a nail, screw or drill.

While I never did a trade, I work with them and can see the dumbing down. Some are more skilled and enthusiastic than others.

I think we can thank McDonalds for this. Their management worked out that if every process can be broken down to a simple task they can train staff very quickly and have less impact with staff changes.

The US Air Force took this idea and ran with it. By training their Technicians in a small area it meant they could take a person from the street and have them repairing aircraft in a very short time.

It was only a matter of time that business discovered that having lower trained stuff allowed them to pay lower wages and lower training costs. This concept works well in a big company. You can have ten people that have only been trained in the area they need to. For example if you owned a large welding business why pay someone that has tickets in every facet of welding when you only want them to mig one thickness of metal.

Large companies have pressured governments to "Dumb" down training. Where this falls apart is the small country business that wants a person to be across a large range of skills.

In my opinion the dumbing down of training and skills is being pushed so big businesses can increase profits. All of this has been pushed not by the younger generation. It is being pushed by an age bracket similar to the average age of this forum.

Steve

My racket is no different.

Mention the word sewing machine and everyone just assumes clothing industry - essentially dead for the most part in places like Aust.

Seen plenty of folk retire and no one replacing them. Businesses that had being running for a long time shutting up.

Its funny, seems to enough be enough places that do auto work locally. My attitude is usually if everyone is making bread, make cakes, so to speak.

So now for the most part I just pick and choose what I do. Get work in from all over the state. Plenty of folk ringing about stuff that simply isnt viable for me to bother with, or simply dont want to do. Many trying to repair 3rd party stuff. In a lot of cases - by the time you dick with it.....

No shortage of work, especially in this age of cheap crap being made and supply shortages of stuff. Guess you might say I'm part of the problem with my attitude to a lot of the stuff I wont touch, but a bloke has gotta make a buck. Then there is only so many hours a week I'm prepared to work. Need to try n cram in a life too.

Re oxy welding aluminium.
A couple of auto body repairers I know do just that.
They usually tack Tig it together and then oxy weld it.
The Tig welds don’t like being reworked on the Ewheel whereas the oxy are ok.
Heres a tank for a bike being done.
H.