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  1. #46
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    I'll be back out to continue those drilling tests shortly, but in the interim I have ordered the Optimum Metex 1-13mm chuck which was $10 off due to an eBay special, so $75 inc post. Should be here in a few days. I also ordered a C-Wrench and Strap Wrench from AliExp but they'll be a bit longer to arrive.

    I may still have occasion to use the Sandu 16mm chuck, so I modified the key. Got rid of the damn springy thingy, lengthened the handle by 46mm, and fattened it by about 3mm. I had one last piece of stainless tube left that has an ID of 6.5mm, and the key handle was 6.7mm, so I filed the handle down and filed out the tube a bit, slid it on and a couple of light hammer taps gives me this (which is MUCH friendlier to the hands):
    Long Chuck Key.jpg
    Regards, FenceFurniture

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by bollie7 View Post
    The angle looks like its 5 or 6mm thick? Even at that thickness it will flex a bit when drilling when held like this.
    You might get a better result by having a bit of wood in the bottom of the vice and sitting the flat of the angle on that, and then drilling.
    It was a bit of that but more of this
    Quote Originally Posted by Stustoys View Post
    Do you have any 118deg drills?(I'm reasonably sure the 132deg wont be helping your triangle holes)
    I drilled two 6mm holes with the bar in this orientation (not those two holes though):
    Clamping setup.jpg

    One hole was with the usual 6mm TiN 130°, and the other was with a 118° uncoated. The 130° hole was a little triangular, and the 118° hole was nice and round, thus indicating that the sharpening angle can influence exit hole roundness.

    Then I switched the orientation to this, with a 7mm thick piece of Tassie Oak underneath it, and drilled the same two 6mm holes (no pic of them):
    Timber support.jpg

    The 118° hole was still round, and the 130° hole was rounder then previously, but still slightly misshapen.

    Then, with the angle clamped in the same orientation, I enlarged them both to 10mm, using the usual 130° TiN bit, and a 118° bit. The 118° 10mm hole was round, and the 130° hole was a bit triangular, and so that is proof that the more obtuse angle grind does have a tendency for triangular exit holes, and that a little bit of flex will exaggerate that.

    Neither hole was as clean on the exit side as I have been getting previously. The worst thing that I noticed in this new orientation was a disturbing increase in vibration. In fact, on one of the holes the DP said "Nup, too much vibration, not doing this any more". I think this might be because in the old way, the faces of the vise are grabbing each side of the vertical face, so it is very securely held. With this new way, one face of the vise is grabbing a 5mm edge (and rounded at that, so probably only ~1˝mm), and that is pushing the back face of the angle against the back face of the vise. I didn't check to see if those two back faces were fully engaged, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were not, due to the angle not necessarily being a true 90° (it's Chinese and cheap).

    I also did not get the long curlies that I did two days ago, and very little of the hissing sound (they go together). In all cases there were several squirts of fluid (which I increased to 1:5 from the previous 1:10).




    So tomorrow, after the Dentist has clamped my head in his particular vise and produced some curlies (my curled fingers in this case), I will repeat a couple of these parts, and then revert to the techniques I was using on Sunday, and compare them.

    The best results I've had so far were (Sunday):

    1. Clamp the job by the vertical face, presenting the outside of the horizontal face to the drill bit (no timber support)
    2. At 700-900 rpm, drill a pilot hole with either a 4mm or 6mm bit, and ignore any exit triangularity
    3. At 500 rpm, drill the 10mm hole with moderate pressure to get hissing curlies, and a round exit wound
    Regards, FenceFurniture

  3. #48
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    What about using the first method but put a block of wood (with the corner cut off so that it fits a bit more closely tucked into the angle of the wood ) so the vice clamps wood on one side and outside of the angle on the back.
    This may help deaden the vibe

  4. #49
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    Yes, I did consider that Bob, and will probably fool around with it some.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    The worst thing that I noticed in this new orientation was a disturbing increase in vibration. In fact, on one of the holes the DP said "Nup, too much vibration, not doing this any more".
    While I've never had any great success trying to hold angle like that in the past, and think it's a pretty ordinary method easily compromised by a number of factors, holding it like that shouldn't lead to an increase in vibration if it's actually clamping ok. In my experience it either tries to spit the angle out when doing up the vice, or it holds, and sometimes it comes abruptly loose partway through.

    How much up and down play is there in the moving jaw of your vice, with nothing clamped in it? Holding in that orientation with a thin contact line like that that will accentuate any jaw lift, particularly on a rounded edge. If the angle iron is more acute than 90 degrees (I often find it's more like say 88 degrees), or if the fixed jaw either leans back or flexes back, it will want to lay the vertical face of the angle iron flat against the fixed jaw, and lift the moving jaw up. Then the pressure of drilling starts to push it back down, until the drill bites in at which point it lifts, etc, etc.

    If that's the issue, spinning the angle iron around so the vertical face is against the moving jaw should, in theory, improve matters. Really though, there shouldn't be much issue with holding it the way you were in the first place. Stick a block of wood under the area to be drilled to hold the lower edge just off the base of the vice before clamping it up if you're getting too much downward flex in the angle.

    The ultimate setup of course would be to clamp it directly to your table, with the hole location over the hole through the table, and do it that way, but looks like you have perhaps an XY table and some other stuff stacked up on there which would make that a fair hassle.

    I'm definitely starting to wonder though about the profile ground on your 10mm bit, as someone mentioned earlier. Out of pure curiosity I'll have to try a 10mm 135degree bit in Dads horribly cheap and nasty rickety drill press (little Rockwell, I think?) next time I'm over there, and see what it does.

  6. #51
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    "I enlarged them both to 10mm,"
    This worries me.
    Unless you can repeat the location of the workpiece pretty accurately you cant clamp the workpiece when opening out a hole*. If it's clamped and not lined up it will vibration a lot while trying to line itself up.(good way to break a drill as well)
    So by all means use a pilot drill(though 6mm is on the big size), but at least in the beginning, clamp your work, drill your pilot hole, change to 10mm and open out.(even that's not a guarantee if the pilot drill goes for a bit of a wander)
    If you're going to use a 4mm pilot your speed is WAY slow.



    *Yes there are ways to do this but I'm trying to keep it simple ATM.

  7. #52
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    I've found that the reason for the odd shaped holes is that the point (Point Angle) of the drill, is cutting through the bottom before the Margin (sometimes called the land) starts cutting the top edge of the hole.
    So theoretically, a flatter angled drill bit is better, for thinner stock
    Twist Drill Nomenclature.jpg
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  8. #53
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    It sounds like most of your probs with the size of holes and thickness of material you are dealing with will disappear if you use step drills.
    This budget end model drills 7mm deep holes, from 4 - 12 mm with steps of 2mm, so it easily drills a 7mm thick piece of steel

    STepdrill.jpg
    As step drills are much shorter and thicker than twist bits
    They wander less before starting the hole.
    Hole is cleaner with less break thru burr
    Any small top and ubreak thrunder burr can be cleared by pushing the drill a whisker onto the next size ie no need to get a deburrer out.

    One issue with them is you may not be able to small holes drill hoes really close to a step.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stustoys View Post
    clamp your work, drill your pilot hole, change to 10mm and open out.
    At the moment there is a lot of chopping and changing around, as I try different things. Usually, I would do exactly that: drill the pilot hole, change to the larger bit, enlarge the hole, move on to the next hole to drill with the pilot bit. The pilot bit shouldn't be wandering because I always centre punch the spot, use the XY table to line up the point, initially just drill a tiny way in to make sure it has been lined up properly, and proceed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stustoys View Post
    If it's clamped and not lined up it will vibration a lot while trying to line itself up.
    If I'm revisiting a previously drilled pilot hole (meaning it has to be lined up again) then I usually put the pilot bit back in the chuck and make sure it has a nice clean entry into the existing hole (not spinning though), before changing to the 10mm bit. However, there have been some occasions with this testing where I haven't done that - they may be the holes that are vibrating, so I'll check for that today.

    WRT to speed for 4mm: I used 900rpm, where you would probably suggest 1500-2000. I'm getting very round holes on both sides with this 118° 4mm, so can a slower speed (900) introduce any other problems? I'm trying to restrict swarf being thrown all around the place (being primarily a woodshop). The DP is in a corner with all sorts of things around it to catch swarf and digest it out of sight into clamp threads etc etc etc. I may have to see what I can do about rearranging this corner, but it's a pretty small shop with limitations. Yellow tongue floor (DP is bolted to it, and the column is clamped to the wall). There are also cats that wander in from time to time, so I'm particular about cleaning up swarf, esp on the floor - the cats can get into the nooks that I can't see into and where swarf can be thrown. It may be that I have to stop them coming in altogether, even when I'm not drilling steel. My magnetic pu can't get into all those nooks either, and certainly not without sticking to the DP base or many other steel things (clamps etc).
    Regards, FenceFurniture

  10. #55
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    Pilot holes ... WHY?

    Maybe drill a 4mm pilot if you're using a pistol drill to finish at 12mm but in a drill press or lathe I can't understand. I might consider a pilot hole for something over 25mm dia. but under that a properly sharpened drill should drill a perfect hole.

    Can someone post some pictures of the pointy end of these drills that you're using to get these triangular holes because there's something wrong.

    For an exercise I just drilled a 19.5mm hole in a piece of 5mm thick angle without a pilot hole, in a vyce and no timber support for a close to round hole. For perfectly round I'd finish off with a 20mm reamer. While I was taking pictures I thought I'd include the simple little drill jig for comparing the cutting edge heights.DSCN1525.jpgDSCN1526.jpgDSCN1528.jpg

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll and Hyde View Post
    How much up and down play is there in the moving jaw of your vice, with nothing clamped in it?
    Virtually nil, which was somewhat surprising. Just the tiniest bit, which it needs to allow for winding back and forth. 0.25mm?
    Regards, FenceFurniture

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    It sounds like most of your probs with the size of holes and thickness of material you are dealing with will disappear if you use step drills.
    This budget end model drills 7mm deep holes, from 4 - 12 mm with steps of 2mm, so it easily drills a 7mm thick piece of steel

    STepdrill.jpg
    As step drills are much shorter and thicker than twist bits
    They wander less before starting the hole.
    So this is the range (exclusively Chinese manu) on offer at Bunnings.
    IMG_20220817_094753.jpg

    The one at the top marked $21.75 looks suspiciously like the one you showed. 4-12mm.


    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Any small top and ubreak thrunder burr
    Now Bob, I'm pretty good at decoding most typos (or thumbos), but I have to say I'm struggling a bit with that one
    Regards, FenceFurniture

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snapey View Post
    Pilot holes ... WHY?

    Maybe drill a 4mm pilot if you're using a pistol drill to finish at 12mm but in a drill press or lathe I can't understand. I might consider a pilot hole for something over 25mm dia. but under that a properly sharpened drill should drill a perfect hole.

    Can someone post some pictures of the pointy end of these drills that you're using to get these triangular holes because there's something wrong.
    Are you having a go exclusively at me or at anyone in general who has suggested using pilot holes?
    Regards, FenceFurniture

  14. #59
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    So this is the range (exclusively Chinese manu) on offer at Bunnings.
    The one at the top marked $21.75 looks suspiciously like the one you showed. 4-12mm.
    There was a thread about expensive versus cheap step drills on the forums a few months back. There are endless Utube vids on this topic.
    Expensive ones appear to be worth it if you are going to be into production drilling.
    My sets (I have a couple of sets of 3's in the shed and a couple of sets in the electronics room in the study) are all cheapos I got off Ebay.
    I dont recall paying more than bout $10 for each set.
    The oldest set is about 15 years old and they are still going strong.

    RE: Any small top and ubreak thrunder burr
    Now Bob, I'm pretty good at decoding most typos (or thumbos), but I have to say I'm struggling a bit with that one
    That has to be one of my best.
    should be
    Any small top and underside burr can be cleared by pushing the drill a whisker onto the next size ie no need to get a deburrer out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KBs PensNmore View Post
    I've found that the reason for the odd shaped holes is that the point (Point Angle) of the drill, is cutting through the bottom before the Margin (sometimes called the land) starts cutting the top edge of the hole.
    Agreed, but in this case we are talking about drilling 5mm material and I make the tip of a 10mm 118 drill about 2.5mm.


    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    At the moment there is a lot of chopping and changing around, as I try different things. Usually, I would do exactly that: drill the pilot hole, change to the larger bit, enlarge the hole, move on to the next hole to drill with the pilot bit. The pilot bit shouldn't be wandering because I always centre punch the spot, use the XY table to line up the point, initially just drill a tiny way in to make sure it has been lined up properly, and proceed.
    All good then.

    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    WRT to speed for 4mm: I used 900rpm, where you would probably suggest 1500-2000.
    More like 3000rpm, but hey sometimes you have to do what you have to do, If I was doing something that required swapping drills a lot, without a VSD I'd likely set the rpm for the big drill and just live with it.
    But I've drilled a lot of holes so have some idea what compromises I'm making. You seem to be trying to learn how to drill holes while operating "outside the norm", then complaining you cant get the desire result. I'm just trying to get you to at least try it closer to "the book" a few times. But perhaps that will have to wait until you can contain your swarf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snapey View Post
    Pilot holes ... WHY?
    Agreed.
    Drills are made to drill holes. Sure we can ask them to do other things, open holes out, act as a reamer(with a little work on the edges), even a bit of "side drilling"TM, any of these can lead to other issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    Are you having a go exclusively at me or at anyone in general who has suggested using pilot holes?
    Pilot drills have there place, but I would argue without some other reason, a 10mm hole in MS on a drill press isn't that place, even then I think 6mm is on large side, but hey it maybe necessary.
    How many Hp is your DP?

    *edit* This shouldn't be taken as pilot drills are always bad, maybe on your machine its a good idea.

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