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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    Tamworth, NSW
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    202

    Default Holding and indexing round stock

    Hi everyone

    I am looking for some advice on setup for a project I am working on at the moment please.

    I have turned a tail stock tap and die holder on the lathe. The holder is approx 35mm in diameter and slides on a 19mm shaft. In examples of these types of holders most seem to knurl the outside to provide some grip. In my case I don’t have a knurling tool and thought I would flute it using a ball nose end mill. However holding is difficult and indexing even more so. I have come up with a vee-block in the vice as work holding but then if I make a groove as mocked up in the pic how will I ever go about indexing to the next flute? The size is too large for a collet block and even if I glued the holder onto a 19mm bar to use we collet block on the bar, I quickly run out of room on my mill.

    Should I just go as I have mocked up and index using a protractor to eye ball it close enough? This is for hand holding grip and no accuracy really needed - although I’d like it to look “about right”. I thought this is a chance to try something I’ve not done before and if it goes pear shaped no harm really done.

    Material is 316 stainless (what I had on hand) and other option for grip is to sand blast it but I thought fluting would be more fun. My mill is small (BCA jig borer) so light cuts slow and steady will be called for.

    BE50FB62-04D9-4A5C-A0E2-170691934470.jpeg

    Thanks
    Ian
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
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    9,088

    Default

    How many flutes do you want?

    Do you have a set of lathe change gears?
    Bolt one to the other end of your stock and index off that?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
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    Melbourne
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    35
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    Default

    Hmm do you have a lathe? I would use the three jaws on a three jaw chuck (or four on the 4 jaw) with a block under the jaws to lay out scribed lines, then index the part by eye to reduce the number of indexing errors then use those scribed lines and a point to rotate it in the vice.

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Toorloo Arm, VIC
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    39
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    Default

    Make yourself a Rose Index.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ANx2AzPJzE

    Been on my list to make one ever since I saw it.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Tamworth, NSW
    Posts
    202

    Default

    Yes I have a lathe - that's what i used to make the part. I guess it sounds like marking out on the lathe then move to mill and eye balling will be best way.

    I was thinking in the order of 8 flutes - every 45 degrees.

    I do have some lathe gears and that is a nice thought to bolt one or something else to the end to index off!

    Rose index - now that looks the ticket!

    thanks for all of the thoughtful suggests so far guys!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Southern Flinders Ranges
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    1,536

    Default

    Get a dress makers tape wind around your 4 jaw and mark the centre between the jaws.
    Set a mag base or some other means of holding a pointer and aim it at the 4jaw.
    Middle of one jaw, lock the chuck (I engage the back gear as well as the gear box, you’re not running the machine so it won’t hurt it) run the lathe tool in and use it as a scribe, release the chuck and rotate to the mark between the jaws, lock it and scribe. Move to the next jaw and continue until you have 8 scribed lines. If you want 6 do it with the 3 jaw.
    Put it in your V block and centre the cutter on the scribed lines.
    If you make the scribe lines deep enough the cutter can be used to index the part in the vice.

    Could also count teeth on a gear to get your index marks.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Geelong, Australia
    Age
    57
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    2,651

    Default

    On the lathe, make a small plug that will fit snugly in the end of the bit you want fluted, ideally with a step so it doesn't go all the way in.
    Mark a horizontal line on it with your lathe tool while its still chucked by touching the end slightly with the tool and winding the cross slide.
    Rotate spindle 90deg until the line is vertical (check with a square off the cross slide).
    Mark another line with the lathe tool.
    Find something that is 45deg (fold a piece of paper square then diagonally across the corners if you're really desperate) and rotate the spindle until one of the lines is at 45deg, mark, then repeat for the other 45deg.
    Remove that bit from the lathe and poke it in the end of your workpiece. Put an alignment mark between the 2 parts so you can see if they move relative to each other.

    From there, just line the first mark up vertically using a square, cut your flute - then rinse and repeat for the others.

    You could also skip the lathe part completely if you have something to accurately mark a horizontal line across the center of the part directly onto the part as it is in the vice. Something like a height gauge or surface gauge or an adjustable parallel.

    Indexing 8 is as simple as just indexing 4 (easy to do with a square) - then splitting one of the segments and indexing 4 again.
    Indexing 6 - just grab something hexagonal and attach it to the end of the part. Like the rose index it doesn't even have to be centered as its only the angles you're interested in. Then split one of the segments and repeat if you want 12 etc.

    Steve

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    melbourne australia
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    Default

    I highly recommend drilling 12 or 24 holes in your chuck's back plate and fitting a tapered locking pin somewhere on the lathe.
    Especially handy if you have a toolpost mounted motor with ER11 collet chuck.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Chris

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Tamworth, NSW
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    Default

    Thanks to everyone who posted - there are many ways to skin this cat! I was having a real mental block and I know it wasn’t a particularly hard problem, I just needed some ideas to get me thinking how I could do it. I really enjoy the forum and the helpful posts here just show what a great bunch of people are willing to share helpful advice. I think I have a decent way forward now and hope to share my setup and results later in the week.

    Ian

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Tamworth, NSW
    Posts
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jack620 View Post
    I highly recommend drilling 12 or 24 holes in your chuck's back plate and fitting a tapered locking pin somewhere on the lathe.
    Especially handy if you have a toolpost mounted motor with ER11 collet chuck.
    pid like to hear more about your tool post mounted motor Jack?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    melbourne australia
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    3,228

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Danger Mouse View Post
    pid like to hear more about your tool post mounted motor Jack?
    It’s one of these.

    https://www.banggood.com/Machifit-ER11-Chuck-CNC-500W-Spindle-Motor-with-52mm-Clamps-and-Power-Supply-Speed-Governor-p-1027937.html?imageAb=2&gmcCountry=AU&currency=AUD&createTmp=1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_union&utm_content=2zou&utm_campaign=ssc-au-all&gclid=EAIaIQobChMItef7s8C83wIVxRwrCh1jcwyeEAQYASABEgJRXvD_BwE&cur_warehouse=CN&akmClientCountry=AU



    Great for drilling and milling with bits up to 6mm. Probably good for grinding too, but I don’t like getting abrasive grit on my lathe.
    Chris

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Location
    Revesby - Sydney Australia
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    56
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    1,183

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Danger Mouse View Post
    pid like to hear more about your tool post mounted motor Jack?
    I also have something similar:

    IMG_0392.jpg IMG_0415.jpg IMG_0391.jpg


    My toolmaker neighbour machined up the holder for me.


    I initially used it for milling slots in a faceplate:
    IMG_0394.jpg IMG_0393.jpg
    but setup was not rigid enough (8mm HSS cutter in cast iron). A smaller milling cutter might work better.


    I have since used it for grinding, which was a little more useful.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    melbourne australia
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    3,228

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nigelpearson View Post
    (8mm HSS cutter in cast iron).
    Do you have a reduced shank milling cutter? I haven't been able to find ER11 collets larger than 7mm.
    Chris

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
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    Revesby - Sydney Australia
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    Default

    Got a cheap oversized collet from here:

    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32947049504.html



    (which reminds me - I should buy some oversized ones for my ER32 holders, but they aren't cheap:

    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001836996758.html

    )

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Tamworth, NSW
    Posts
    202

    Default

    Just a quick update on this. I used a large nut that screwed into a plug that sat nicely in the end of my bar. A threaded rod acted like a draw bar through the round stock keeping the nut securely in place. From there it was a simple case of using a 1-2-3 block to index the flat of the nut to get 6 index points for the 6 flutes. Hopefully the pics show this and all worked very well. The flutes are not particularly deep but are just right for the purpose of giving some hand holding grip. Now just a couple of grub screws need to be drilled and tapped and I will have my finished tap and die holder for my tail stock. Thanks to everyone for their suggestions on this topic.

    A1EC7BDE-5BD4-4356-8528-578290BF2292.jpeg

    0548A9E8-C5B1-4393-A2E9-5802D1FEEE7F.jpeg

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