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  1. #1
    Join Date
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    Default Is this lathe any good?

    As a follow on from the freight thread I've continued to keep my eye out for a lathe.

    For some context my machining background is zero. I don't know how to use a lathe and I'll need to learn on whatever I get. It will be used to support my various other hobbies. In reality I suspect the tolerances I work to are so loose that anything would work for me.

    Given the above it shouldn't be surprising that I know SFA about assessing the condition and value of SH gear.

    The safest bet would be to just buy something from H&F. Something around the AL336 or AL960 size would have me covered for everything I could imagine doing.

    I don't think I've ever taken the easy road though.

    I've just seen that a Takisawa TSL-800DX has turned up at the local machinery dealer:

    Lathe - Maxon Machinery Co. Pty Ltd.

    It ticks the box for size and location. I'd need to run it off a VFD. In its day it looks like it was probably a very fine machine.

    Am I nuts for considering this?
    Should I just buy something that is a known quantity from H&F?
    Are there any obvious red flags from the dealers page above?

    Any comments appreciated. No need to be diplomatic.

    Thanks, Tim

  2. #2
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    Default

    The forum is split on buying new or buying secondhand. Personally, I'm in the secondhand is alright camp. I believe that buying a used, good brand is a positive thing as by the time you have fixed any issues you will know it well. Takisawa is a good lathe and that one (from the photo) looks in reasonable condition. What the bed wear is like, what the gears and electrics are like remains to be seen. $6k is more than I'd like to pay, but it is from a dealer. Provided all the bits come with it, it is not an outrageous price.

    On the VFD, there are two things to remember. firstly, they should be switched at the VFD rather than on the machine. Not a big deal, but that may mean you need to be a little creative with how you interface. Some put in a second set of switches, others tap into the existing switch gear.
    Second thing is that a 10A plug will power up to around 2kW of load (maybe a little less when efficiency comes into it) when run through a VFD. Running say a 3kW lathe won't work too well.

    Michael

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    Newcastle
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    Default

    My shed is a relatively recent addition. Well, relative to the house which is 100 yrs old.

    I made sure there is plenty of power, including a separate circuit which has 15A outlets.

    I should have run a 3ph cable up here when I did it so upgrading to 3ph was an option I could look at it the future but hindsight is always great. Not an option now.

  4. #4
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    Default

    On the power side, I note this particular one is the DX variant which seems to have very similar spec. to the D but the 2.2kW motor uprated to 3.7kW. Also does 2000 RPM vs 1800 RPM.

    If power did turn out to be an issue would it be an option to downsize to a 2.2kW motor during the VFD conversion?

    If the extra horsepower is to allow deeper cuts then obviously that is not such an issue for me.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
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    Geelong, Australia
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    Default

    I've got a TSL1000D - slightly longer bed and more speeds (ie smaller steps between speeds mine is 83-1800 rpm) . Irrelevant if you're going to run it on a VFD anyway.

    Good solid lathe (mine is 1200kg - that one you linked to will be about 1100kg).
    Metric and imperial threading but you do need to swap a couple of change gears to get some of the pitches - ie they aren't all selectable straight from the gearbox levers.

    Spindle bore is quite small for the swing at only 37mm, but that only started to become an issue for me when I started doing larger/longer work.
    Not sure what hobbies you have but if its smaller stuff then spindle bore is likely not an issue.
    Tailstock will be 3MT.
    There's a manual lube pump on the saddle that does the saddle and cross slide ways. Not automatic - I just give mine a couple of pumps at the start of a session and job done. The saddle gears run in an oil bath so nothing to do there. There are a couple of oil points for the cross slide leadscrew that have to be oiled manually, and the small rectangular cover above the feed gearbox has a bunch of holes in the bottom with tubes that go to the various gears. I put a few squirts of oil in there at the start of a session as its a total loss system - runs through and eventually finds its way out the bottom of the gearbox and into the chip pan.

    There were 2 different spindle noses in the era of my lathe. Mine has a D1-6 camlock which is common size, but there was also another not so common one ASA A1-5". Mine is 1982 vintage and the DX model looks like it might have been slightly later.
    The one you linked to doesn't seem to have a D1-6 camlock - almost looks like the chuck might be screw mounted from the front. through to the spindle but a bit hard to tell.
    From what I can see in the photos and video it doesn't appear to have done much work and is in better condition than mine.
    It also appears to have a single speed motor which is good as it makes running it from a VFD easier - mine has a 2 speed motor.
    Foot brake is great as it doesn't have a spindle clutch. I use mine all the time, mostly just to reduce the stopping time, but its effective enough that it will stop the spindle almost instantly at low speed, so I also use it for threading.

    Mine has been very reliable. Everything works, nothing has broken.
    Its got quite a bit of wear in the cross slide, but that's a product of having done a lot of work not a design fault as such.
    Only electrical issue I've had was with one of the old milk bottle style fuses getting loose and causing intermittent electrical non-working. Don't think that's happened in the last couple of years since I worked out what the problem was and tightened it!

    $6K for the one you've linked to isn't cheap in my eyes, but I think in the current market if its in as good a condition as it appears its probably not outrageous. Would be nice if it had the steadies and other change gears so definitely ask about those if you are pursuing it further.
    I only paid $2K for mine, but that was about 5 years ago, and it was from a private seller. Plus I had to do a road trip to Canberra with a trailer to pick it up. So probably cost me close to $2.5K and lost a month off my life eating junk food on the trip.
    As I said - its also quite worn.

    As I said, mine has been great for what I bought it for, and my only frustrations are because I'm asking more of it than what I ever expected to, and somewhat due to the wear (which I can fix, but didn't want to be without a lathe for months while I did it).
    I recently bought another bigger lathe - a 21" Dean Smith and Grace (see my thread on Adventures with a Jolly Green Giant if you're interested) but its a whole different beast. I definitely won't be selling the Takisawa any time soon as its a great machine.
    I doubt you would be disappointed with that lathe if you bought it.

    Steve

  6. #6
    Join Date
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by browny View Post
    On the power side, I note this particular one is the DX variant which seems to have very similar spec. to the D but the 2.2kW motor uprated to 3.7kW. Also does 2000 RPM vs 1800 RPM.

    If power did turn out to be an issue would it be an option to downsize to a 2.2kW motor during the VFD conversion?

    If the extra horsepower is to allow deeper cuts then obviously that is not such an issue for me.
    Just get a VFD that will handle the full power of the motor, and limit the max current in the VFD settings if you find you are tripping the breaker for your 15A outlet. Will be much cheaper and easier than messing around with motor swaps.
    One of the great things with VFD's is the soft start, so you can run much bigger motors than what you could if you were just starting them directly.
    I'm running my Takisawa lathe off a home-built rotary phase converter that gives me 3ph from my single phase supply. Because its just a direct start on the lathe, it won't actually start directly on the high speed setting for the motor (which is 5hp/3.7kw).
    If I get it spinning on the low speed setting then flick the motor over to high then it runs fine - just won't start directly in high.
    I really need to pull my finger out and put a VFD on it as it will make it even nicer to use!

    As a side note - I'm running the big DSG off a 32A single phase outlet with a 11kw VFD. Its got a 20hp (15kw) spindle motor.
    Starts and runs fine. Will I ever be able to get 20hp out of it - no way, but its definitely quite usable and I can live with that...

    Steve

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    Canberra
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by browny View Post
    The safest bet would be to just buy something from H&F. Something around the AL336 or AL960 size would have me covered for everything I could imagine doing.

    I don't think I've ever taken the easy road though.

    I've just seen that a Takisawa TSL-800DX has turned up at the local machinery dealer:

    Lathe - Maxon Machinery Co. Pty Ltd.
    I was similarly clueless when I looked into getting a lathe, and decided there was no way I could really evaluate a used lathe for wear and accuracy, let alone fix any faults, so decided to buy new.

    Now, as respectable as that machine might be, it's $6.6k. and you have to mess about with sorting out a VFD.

    The H&F lathe I bought now costs $7.4k, but it's got a very nice vector VFD and braking resistor (once adjusted, it will stop *very* quickly), a similar bore and working envelope, a DRO, which if you're clueless like me, is a godsend, a quick change tool post, and it's new, unworn and accurate.

    If your budget can stretch another $800 it seems much better value - https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/L555D

  8. #8
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    Default

    That looks like a nice machine Rusty.
    Interesting to note that at 630kg it’s just a bit over half the weight of the Takisawa.
    While the extra mass is something I personally prefer, it definitely creates issues of its own for handling.
    630kg is easy engine crane stuff, and likely delivered in a crate on a tail lift truck. 1100kg is technically doable with a 2T engine crane but practically - maybe not due to reduced capacity at reach. Delivery probably by crane truck. Not so easy to move even when unloaded and on casters etc.
    definitely something to consider.

    Steve

  9. #9
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    Default

    I would be in the Takisawa camp on this one. That machine looks like it has spent time in a government facility somewhere and has yet to do a real hard days work. When new I think it fair to say that it would have been head and shoulders above anything H&F sell of similar capacity, and it looks like it is probably still in excellent condition, but having said that, you really need to take someone experienced with you to inspect it before laying out $6K+ for it. There is bound to be another forum member from your area who would be able to evaluate that lathe to see if it is as good as it appears to be, or more correctly to see that there are no glaring issues or faults. Like Steve said, it is worth asking where all the original accessories like steadies, faceplate, chucks, change gears, tooling and manuals are, and it would be worth seeing if you can download a manual if the original one has been lost. That would assist in your evaluation of this unit, and if you can run the lathe, check to see all speeds and feeds work, take some test cuts etc to allow your experienced machinist mate make a fair evaluation of it. To me the paintwork looks original, and not a freshen up and if so that machine could have had an easy life in some workshop run by some government organisation like a university or the CSIRO. If that is the case, then it would be still great value even at the 7-$7.5K it will cost you to get it set up at your place with a suitable VFD. You are quite correct in thinking that it was a quality unit back when it was new, and hopefully it still is.
    Rob.

  10. #10
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    Apr 2007
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    Newcastle
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    Default

    My thought is that it would be closer to $7k once I pay someone to collect it and get it in the shed. Driveway is not so user friendly so I'm happy to pay someone to deal with that.

  11. #11
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    Default

    I would have freighted the C10 and used the spare coin to buy a mill.

  12. #12
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    Default

    I agree on the Holbrook but it was one of those situations where I just wasn't prepared enough.

    Spoke to the dealer. It came from a local council. Original paint. Doesn't come with anything other than what is in the pics. No change gears, no steadies. Best example of this particular lathe he's had go through the business. Always hard to put too much weight on comments like that but he sounded like an older guy who has no interest in BS.

  13. #13
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    Potentially the statement about it being the best example he's had through the business is correct. It does look to be in good condition and although not rare they aren't super common. Statement could be 100% true and it be the only one he's ever had - or he could have had 20 and this one is really great

    Pity about the change gears/steadies. They were missing on mine too. I picked up a fixed steady of about the right size and made an adapter plate for the base. I've also made most of the set of change gears - they are nothing special - just Mod 1.5 gears, and about 15mm wide from memory.
    I just made mine from mild steel plate - turned up the blanks on the lathe and then cut the teeth in the mill. If you don't have a mill then you might be able to convince a kind member near you to help out with that part in exchange for beer tickets etc...
    You can also buy cheap M1.5 gears online from AliExpress etc. Another option is to have a crack at 3D printing them. I'm reasonably confident they would hold up OK if you're just cutting small pitch threads which only generate light loads on the gears. I'm not so sure about how the keyways would hold up with printed gears if you were loading them up though.
    The other option for common size threading is just to use taps and dies if you already have them.

    Being a used item there's no fixed pricing either, so if you decide to go further with it be prepared to haggle a bit as IME its very unlikely they will only be making a couple of hundred on it. If they won't move on the price at least try and get delivery included, or see if they can throw in something useful like a drill chuck for the tailstock, or an orphan steady about the right size. Buying new tooling adds up very quickly so even if you can get some old junk it will get you going while you work out what you really need.

    Steve

  14. #14
    BobL is online now Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by browny View Post
    On the power side, I note this particular one is the DX variant which seems to have very similar spec. to the D but the 2.2kW motor uprated to 3.7kW. Also does 2000 RPM vs 1800 RPM.

    If power did turn out to be an issue would it be an option to downsize to a 2.2kW motor during the VFD conversion?

    If the extra horsepower is to allow deeper cuts then obviously that is not such an issue for me.
    There may be no need to use a different motor.

    You can usually get full power safely from a 3kW motor using a 15A single phase circuit, and a 3.7kW from a 20A single phase circuit.
    Virtually any unloaded motor up to about 10HP will run on a smaller VFD on Single phase, provided you set the VFD for a slow start and set a current limit that suits the VFD/breaker.

    The other day I was running a 7.5HP motor from a 2.2kW VFD without any problems. Of course it would not deliver anywhere near 7.5 horses but if you had limited choice (ie only had a 10A circuit to work with) it would not be unreasonable to run a 5HP motor on a 2.2kW VFD.

  15. #15
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    I've read up a bit more on the VFD and electrical side over the last couple of days. Not worried about it at all.

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