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  1. #1
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    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Don’t know many people who like futzing with chemicals etc as much as I do but none of those inspire me that much especially given the time requiredThe 3rd video dabbles with sulphuric acid which is not that safe. I’m currently using up my remaining soluble oil on my lathe and BS and then I’m switching to ATF and Kero thru a mister, like I have on my small mill

  3. #3
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    Bob, I have worked in Defence for many years and we are the masters of TLA (three letter acronyms). The issue with acronyms is they mean different things to different people. For instance ATM could mean At The Moment, but I am assuming it means something else. Also what is Keri? I dated a Kerry once but with modern spelling of names I can never be sure.

    As a funny side story I remember getting a question wrong in primary school English. It was what does PTO stand for. Having grown up on a farm I was convinced the answer was Power Take Off, but the teacher would have no part of that and claimed it stood for Please Turn Over. It makes no sense to me as Dad always called it the PTO to turn over the shaft to run the slasher.

    TAFN OAO SAR

  4. #4
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reidy41 View Post
    Bob, I have worked in Defence for many years and we are the masters of TLA (three letter acronyms). The issue with acronyms is they mean different things to different people. For instance ATM could mean At The Moment, but I am assuming it means something else. Also what is Keri? I dated a Kerry once but with modern spelling of names I can never be sure.
    Sorry about that.
    My list of excuses are
    - was stuck parked waiting for over two and half hours for SWMBO to have her COVID jab.
    - was replying on mobile- on which I am all thumbs and no fingers
    - not wearing my reading glasses

  5. #5
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    Bob

    I accept your very valid excuses and have used number two and three on a variety of occasions. When you get a chance what is your secret brew. I am guessing Auto Transmission Fluid (ATF) and Kerosene (Kero).

    Does it work on most steels and aluminums.


    Thanks

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    I’m currently using up my remaining soluble oil on my lathe and BS and then I’m switching to ATF and Kero thru a mister, like I have on my small mill
    I know we’ve discussed this before Bob, but I have serious concerns about the potential health implications of spraying kero and ATF through a mister. Have you done any research into the safety of this procedure?
    Chris

  7. #7
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reidy41 View Post
    Bob
    I accept your very valid excuses and have used number two and three on a variety of occasions. When you get a chance what is your secret brew. I am guessing Auto Transmission Fluid (ATF) and Kerosene (Kero).
    It's not screw but similar to what other members used ie 75% ATF and 25% kero, but don't forget that's in a mister.
    Does it work on most steels and aluminums.
    I use meths in a trigger bottle on Al - it leaves zero mess
    BUT
    It does need ventilation or you can intoxicate yourself

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Don’t know many people who like futzing with chemicals etc as much as I do but none of those inspire me that much especially given the time requiredThe 3rd video dabbles with sulphuric acid which is not that safe. I’m currently using up my remaining soluble oil on my lathe and BS and then I’m switching to ATF and Kero thru a mister, like I have on my small mill
    Hi Bob
    What are you going to run in your bandsaw when the soluble oil is finished ?

    Thankyou

    Simon

  9. #9
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    I have made the sulphurised canola oil mix and I found it works.
    Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.

  10. #10
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    This guy at least does some basic comparing of the various brands . He has done many of these videos covering different tools

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6QCrV4ZOiU

  11. #11
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack620 View Post
    I know we’ve discussed this before Bob, but I have serious concerns about the potential health implications of spraying kero and ATF through a mister. Have you done any research into the safety of this procedure?
    Yes this is a good point.

    Lets start with ROCOL.
    Some MSDS show no bio effects for ROCOL, but the MSDSs originating from AUS supplies show the same time weight average (TWA) as for general mineral oils of 5mg/m^3.
    Using ROCOL has the added benefit of being seriouly diluted between 20 and 40:1 with water AND more importantly its used as a flood coolant so much less vapour is produced.
    Because of this I don't use ventilation when using soluble oil.

    Now the ATF/Kero brew - 75% ATF and 25% Kero
    Kero has a time weight average (TWA) exposure of between 100 and 350 mg/m^3, while ATF, ahas like most mineral oils, has a TWA of 5mg/m^3
    As Kero is the smaller component and has a much high exposure limit we can forget about that and focus on the ATF

    In a shed like mine (100m^3 ) than means if theoretically I use just 500mg of ATF (660mg of brew) and no ventilation I've reached the limit. This doesn't sound like much but I can sometimes complete a job and use less than this amount - see below.

    There are a few gotchas to consider:
    A) even though its supposed to be misting its not really, its somewhere between mist and just visible droplets. The "mist" doesn't not come out and fill the room but falls down onto the work/bit/,machine. Based on what I see absent in the delivery bottle versus what's in and on the mill table I reckon the majority (>90%) ends up as liquid on the the mill table, the workpiece and various holding gear. I've started jamming a few pieces of absorbent paper into the table lots around the mill vice which seems to pick up most of it - I should do a weigh in-out of this some day. I'm guessing here but most vapour seems to be generated by evaporation from hot areas of the work or bits.

    B) The vapour or evaporation generated will not be uniform across the shed, there will be a much greater concentration near the working mill (and operator), I reckon what evaporates of when the work is hot is the kero because even though I have a poor nose I can smell it.

    C) I don't use the mill all that often - maybe 2-3 times a week, my jobs are small to very small, and relatively short in time . As a result I have used <250 ml of brew in about 3 years

    Because of the above factors, I really doubt my TWA gets anywhere near 5mg/m^3 (even without ventilation) but about 3m away I have my welding booth with a 1600 CFM extraction fan and when doing longer jobs I do run the extractor on a slow speed. If I forget to turn the fan not within a few minutes can smell the brew (kero) and that reminds me to turn on the fan

    A more significant issue is using misting on the lathe as sometimes I'm sitting on the machine for hours each day and sometimes many consecutive days. The lathe is also close to the welding booth. The lathe has both soluble oil and misting on it and when I use the mister I do run the exhaust fan. I still like using the flood coolant when parting off.

    My bandsaw use is somewhere between the mill and the lathe. I'm not sure how the mister will go on the bandsaw - anyone else out there using one? I found it certainly does increase teh life of the blades. Maybe even a cheap old soluble lube would do.

    For anyone with a bigger mill and doing a lot more milling I would certainly recommend an exhaust fan be used.

    Another important issue is fire. Having even a small pool of kero/ATF on a machine tray in which the odd grinding spark lands represents some sort of risk, Maybe it will force me to clean up a bit more often.

    Using flood coolant also has problems. Cleaning out the return tank. Pumps and return lines blocking up, remembering to top up due to various losses. The way coolant finds its way down the inside and out of the end of a pipe being cut on the Bandsaw. If I remember usually end up placing a plastic ice cream container under the dribbling end. Compare those to a quick wipe down of a machine with a rag or paper to removed the excess misting oil

  12. #12
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    One thing to be aware of is just because something is made with natural ingredients doesn't automatically mean its safe.
    eg Sulphurized Canola oil has the same TWA vapour OHS exposure levels as most mineralised oils, 5mg/m^3

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    There are a few gotchas to consider:
    A) even though its supposed to be misting its not really, its somewhere between mist and just visible droplets. The "mist" doesn't not come out and fill the room but falls down onto the work/bit/,machine.
    That's quite subjective though. How can you be certain it's not like wood dust where the most dangerous stuff is invisible?

    A couple of years ago I bought a US gal of Kool Mist 77 for my Noga Mini Cool. I've used almost none of it because I don't like having to mop up the water afterwards. It's supposed to have rust inhibitors, but I'm too anal to leave it on the lathe to find out. At my present rate of consumption it should last about 50,000 years. I'm happy to send you 500mL gratis if you want to try it. Just PM me your address if you want some.
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    Chris

  14. #14
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack620 View Post
    That's quite subjective though. How can you be certain it's not like wood dust where the most dangerous stuff is invisible?
    I did a few more BOTE calcs and worked to on average I use about 10g of ATM/kero a month or about 1g per task.
    Shed is 100 m^3
    If ALL the ATM/Kero is aerosolised and spread across the shed that's an average of 10mg/m^3
    BUT
    A)< 10% is aerosolised.
    AND
    B) Concentration will be higher near the mill
    I reckon A will trump B so it will be less than 10mg/m^3

    But remember the 5mg/m^3 is a time weighted average over an 8 hour working period and given I spend far less time in my shed with a mister off than I do with it on, nnd there are some days each week where I don't even go into the shedI reckon my TWA will be well below 5 mg/m^3./
    In practice If a milling job is going to take more than a few minutes the extractor is used and there's no problem.
    When I switch to using it more on the lathe (I reckon I spend probably 10X more time on the lathe than I do on the mill) I am likely to go over the 5 mg/m^3 so will need to use extraction.

    A couple of years ago I bought a US gal of Kool Mist 77 for my Noga Mini Cool. I've used almost none of it because I don't like having to mop up the water afterwards. It's supposed to have rust inhibitors, but I'm too anal to leave it on the lathe to find out. At my present rate of consumption it should last about 50,000 years. I'm happy to send you 500mL gratis if you want to try it. Just PM me your address if you want some.
    Thanks that's very kind of you but I'm also looking at moving away from water based stuff as well.

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