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  1. #1
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    Default Milling machine step up from HM-48

    I’m thinking of cluttering up my workshop with another milling machine, and looking for recommendations/suggestions. I currently own an HM-48 which I converted to CNC, although I use it manually most of the time. I mainly work with relatively small parts, both steel and aluminium.

    As long as I don’t get carried away with depth of cut and speeds it does the job, but it flexes a bit at times making it hard to achieve accuracy even with everything locked. I’ve added gas lifts to the head and bolted the top of the column to a solid concrete wall – it helped, but not much.

    I believe that a universal mill would probably get me the rigidity and accuracy I’m after, but I wouldn’t want to be without a quill, so I’m thinking I should be looking for an NT40 Taiwanese turret mill, preferably with a horizontal arbor, and new or hardly used. Something like this, but hopefully not as expensive.

    Would that give me a significant improvement in accuracy/rigidity over the HM-48? Any other suggestions or advice?

  2. #2
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    What's your budget, how much space do you have, do you have (or are you willing to get) 3-phase power?

  3. #3
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    I've got 3 phase power, space ideally 2500 wide x 2300 deep x 2450 high, but I might be able to rearrange things if a suitable machine required more width or depth. Don't really want to spend more than $20k. It's only a hobby...

  4. #4
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    Bloody hell...wish I had that kind of money to spend on a hobby

    Something like these?

    https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/a...pindle/333068/

    https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/a...ad-Out/604450/

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by elanjacobs View Post
    Bloody hell...wish I had that kind of money to spend on a hobby

    Something like these?

    https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/a...pindle/333068/

    https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/a...ad-Out/604450/
    If rigidity is an important consideration, I'd skip the second one (the $18k one) as it has the 'nod' joint.

    One of the biggest downfalls of the flexibility of a typical Bridgeport style machine - that flexibility also kills the rigidity. Depends on what sort of cuts you really want to take, but the unfortunate reality of a Bridgeport style machine is that as a general rule they're just not really capable of fully utilising anything over about 16mm endmills or 2" facemills. Yes, they'll run bigger tools, and they'll work, but you just aren't going to get any significant benefit on one once you pass that point, other than your wallet not pulling your pants down as much after you've bought the cutters.

    Not so denigrate the ubiquitous Bridgeport, I wouldn't be without one simply for the flexibility it offers, even if I had a honking great 10hp universal with a vertical head. But I'm realistic about it's limitations, the rigidity of the whole head connection to the ram being the major one. In my opinion, NT40 is wasted on one. Sure, NT40 by its nature should mean the spindle is larger diameter, and running in bigger bearings than NT30/R8 - but if it's attached to the typical noddable head Bridgeport, you're not going to get the benefit of that.
    As to the advantage of NT30 over R8 - I'm sceptical that the supposed extra rigidity of the NT30 over R8 is of any use on a Bridgeport. Lots of guys saying NT30 is just so much better, but in the next sentence they're comparing R8 collets to NT30 tooling, which to me is not an even comparison. If such a thing as an NT30 collet existed, I'd be surprised if it performed much better than the R8 collet. Again, my opinion, but I tend to think if you're pushing an R8 hard enough to spin it, you're probably getting outside the envelope of what the Bridgeport was really intended to handle.

    Of course, the first machine Elan linked, and the one linked by the OP are a bit of a different story, not having the nod joint. They may well be capable of utilising the extra rigidity of NT40, or at least a decent portion of it, and having the horizontal spindle means you can bypass all of those issues if you really want to hog.

    Still have the long table with not a lot of support under it though, which brings us around to the point of accuracy - if you're running the table out towards its extents there is a potential for them to droop. The knee arrangement is not necesarily the best for accuracy or repeatability either IMO, although this should be less relevant on a new machine.

    Ultimately though, accuracy comes down to two things. The quality of fit of the sliding surfaces and any joints is one part, and it certainly helps. But the reality is, as you've probably noticed with your HM-48, if you have learned and understand its limitations, and work around them, you can make pretty accurate parts - this is going to apply no matter what your machine is. Yes, if it weighs 10 tonnes and every surface is perfectly scraped in, it certainly makes life easier - but there are still limitations.

    All depends on exactly what you're trying to achieve with this upgrade really - do you want to be able to hog off material fast? Do you want a bit more capacity? Or is the goal mainly accuracy - in which case, some time spent scraping sliding and mating surfaces and addressing the fit and finish finish of the HM-48 may very well yield a surprising improvement in both rigidity and accuracy, and for far less outlay.

    Of course, if you just want a new toy, well, given I just recently replaced a perfectly functional 10 year old 400kg Chinese lathe that I'd scraped in (partly) with a 60+ year old 1300kg Italian machine covered in grot, I ain't the one to talk you out of that idea...

  6. #6
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    Yeah, I've looked at those machines on their website, but I'm guessing they are made in China not Taiwan, which seems to make a difference, at least in my limited experience. Anybody here own one of these Steelmaster machines, and what are they like quality-wise?

  7. #7
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    If rigidity is an important consideration, I'd skip the second one (the $18k one) as it has the 'nod' joint.
    Thanks for that advice, I hadn’t noticed the head joint difference between those 2 machines. I know I might be able to improve the HM-48 as you suggest, but I guess I was hoping to find something that was better to start with, and of course having a new toy to play with is part of the attraction. From what you say though, it sounds like I might not see much improvement with any machine that has the nod joint.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll and Hyde View Post
    If rigidity is an important consideration, I'd skip the second one (the $18k one) as it has the 'nod' joint.
    Depends just how rigid you need it to be though. If you're taking a 70 x 3mm facing cut in 4140, then maybe skip a nod joint, but you could just as easily take 3 shallower or narrower cuts and not have a problem; as you said, it's a hobby, if it takes an extra hour to get the job done, no one's breathing down your neck.

    Here's a 50 taper vertical machine with no head tilt at all if you want absolute rigidity https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/a...l-No-3/532887/
    Or there's the big old universals, but you sacrifice the quill
    https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/a...l-Mill/686113/
    https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/a...5Volt-/670154/
    https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/a...achine/624755/

    It all comes down to what you need from it.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexD View Post
    Thanks for that advice, I hadn’t noticed the head joint difference between those 2 machines. I know I might be able to improve the HM-48 as you suggest, but I guess I was hoping to find something that was better to start with, and of course having a new toy to play with is part of the attraction. From what you say though, it sounds like I might not see much improvement with any machine that has the nod joint.
    No, you should definitely see an improvement over your HM-48 even with the nod joint. But if you're wanting to really rip metal off, that same joint is going to be the primary limiting factor in rigidity. Makes no difference to accuracy if you're doing finishing passes. Again, as I said, depends what exactly you're trying to achieve, and you do lose some flexibility by not having the nod of course (I move the head around quite a bit for various reasons).

    I've settled on 12mm carbide endmills for my Supermax, for a couple of reasons. One is that 12mm seems to be the sweet spot for pricing, before they get rapidly more expensive. The other is that I can bury it 10mm deep in steel with a 0.1mm stepover at 2500-3000rpm, crank the powerfeed to max, and remove metal far quicker than I can using a 20mm HSS rougher - it just doesn't really seem to like pushing that size cutter. I can run a 5" 75 degree facemill at 0.1-0.2mm deep fairly comfortably, although many would say that's abusing the machine it runs it quite happily - but I wouldn't go much deeper. A 2" TPG based facemill can go a bit deeper of course, and supposedly the 2.5" 45 degree high rake facemill I now have should work very well on a Bridgeport, but the inserts I have for it don't have enough clearance angle, so they rub behind the cutting edge. I did diamond file off the high spots on the inserts, and it certainly seems capable of taking quite a deep cut without beating the crap out of the machine, but I really haven't had much time to play with it.

    Hopefully that gives you some frame of reference for what a noddable 30 year old Bridgeport can do quite comfortably. A better machinist could likely get quite a bit more out of it. Doesn't matter what the machine is you end up with, there are going to be some limitations to work within, and there are often multiple ways to 'game' the system (like the aforementioned 45 degree facemill, uses serious positive rake to overcome a lack of rigidity).

    And since I'm here, my 2 cents on Taiwan vs China is that I'm unconvinced, at least in the 'affordable' Taiwanese machines from H&F. Lots of guys on this forum over the years have held the AL960 up as being of better fit and finish than the AL335/336, but watching on Youtube a video from Max Grant where he had his 960B apart for some reason or another, it appeared to have the exact same angle grinder scraping on the cross slide ways as most of the Chinese machines. Might be prettier where you can see it, but on the critical surfaces looks much the same to me. Without blueing the sliding surfaces up, impossible to know if they also get the warped castings like my AL335. Of course, maybe he just got a bad one.... But given I suspect H&F drive for the cheapest possible price out of China/Taiwan, not so sure.

    If I were looking for a new machine in that price range, I'd be inspecting H&Fs offering with a great deal of suspicion - particularly trying to get at the parts you don't normally see. I'd probably steer clear of 'house brands' like that, and look to find something from a standalone manufacturer with a reputation - like this for example:
    https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/a...ACHINE/307585/

    Hundreds of these King Rich machines must have been sold over the years, given how often they pop up at Graysonline, and they usually fetch a high price too. Made in Taiwan, sold in the US under the same brand name and imported by Standaco as far as I know, (who used to be the importers for my Supermax which is also made in Taiwan, and was also sold in the US under that name).

    Of course, if I was buying new, it'd have to be for a company I was running. For my own use at home, I'd be looking at secondhand machines... While I, like you, would be reluctant to not have a quill, I'd certainly consider having a look at this for a small super rigid mill:
    https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/a...achine/686109/

  10. #10
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    King Rich are good, also Herless and Kondia

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by elanjacobs View Post
    Depends just how rigid you need it to be though. If you're taking a 70 x 3mm facing cut in 4140, then maybe skip a nod joint, but you could just as easily take 3 shallower or narrower cuts and not have a problem; as you said, it's a hobby, if it takes an extra hour to get the job done, no one's breathing down your neck.
    Agreed. Just felt it was worth pointing out, as Bridgeport style machines do have some limitations that are lower than you'd perhaps expect from looking at the size of them. I'm fine with that given the other advantages of the type, but without knowing what the OP envisioned as a suitable amount of rigidity or accuracy, impossible to know whether it's a problem for him personally - and you'd hate to find out $20k later...

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll and Hyde View Post
    No, you should definitely see an improvement over your HM-48 even with the nod joint. But if you're wanting to really rip metal off, that same joint is going to be the primary limiting factor in rigidity. Makes no difference to accuracy if you're doing finishing passes. Again, as I said, depends what exactly you're trying to achieve, and you do lose some flexibility by not having the nod of course (I move the head around quite a bit for various reasons).
    Defining what I want to do with it isn’t that easy. I keep coming up with new things to do all the time. Yes, better accuracy than I can manage on the HM-48 is a goal, but it sure would be nice to be able to hog out larger amounts of material without it taking forever or threatening to shake the machine apart. As far as versatility goes, I’ve never found a need to tilt the head on the HM-48, and wouldn’t really want to due to the pain of tramming it again. But I do think I need a quill. I agree with your comments re H&F vs name brand importers.

  13. #13
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    Possibly worth mentioning that the traditional Bridgeport that most people refer to is a 1000Kg machine, while something in the class of the King Rich KJV 3000 tops 1800Kg. If i remember correctly, the $18000 steelmaster machine was between 1400 and 1500Kg. I do realise that Bridgeport made many different machines, I just find that when people talk of Bridgeports, they mean a machine with either R8 of NT30 taper and 2Hp.
    I have not pushed my King Rich to anywhere near it's limits, but I certainly know it's a quantum leap over the Do All Bridgeport clone we have at work.

  14. #14
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    These comments are very helpful. It seems like I should be satisfied with something like the KR-V3000, but somewhat disappointing that the price new is $24K – more than I really want to spend. The $18K Steelmaster SM-KD4VS seems like a similar-sized machine, but the thing that puts me off a bit is that only the head is made in Taiwan. Among the various pieces of machinery in my workshop there are noticeable and sometimes quite annoying deficiencies with those from China compared to those from Taiwan. Things like surfaces that should be perpendicular to others not, stripped or inadequately-deep threads, poorly positioned holes, lack of thought about where and how to attach fittings, poor fits, difficult access for lubrication, etc, so I’m keen to try and obtain a fully Taiwanese machine if possible. I would be okay with a second-hand machine as long as it was in really good condition, but there doesn’t seem to be much around right now, at least not in Sydney.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexD View Post
    These comments are very helpful. It seems like I should be satisfied with something like the KR-V3000, but somewhat disappointing that the price new is $24K – more than I really want to spend. The $18K Steelmaster SM-KD4VS seems like a similar-sized machine, but the thing that puts me off a bit is that only the head is made in Taiwan. Among the various pieces of machinery in my workshop there are noticeable and sometimes quite annoying deficiencies with those from China compared to those from Taiwan. Things like surfaces that should be perpendicular to others not, stripped or inadequately-deep threads, poorly positioned holes, lack of thought about where and how to attach fittings, poor fits, difficult access for lubrication, etc, so I’m keen to try and obtain a fully Taiwanese machine if possible. I would be okay with a second-hand machine as long as it was in really good condition, but there doesn’t seem to be much around right now, at least not in Sydney.
    I tend to think that before you get too carried away you'd be best served by seeing if you can get hold of a local member with the typical Bridgeport class machine with R8 or NT30 spindle who'll let you run a bit of a project on his machine, or perhaps find one in a mens shed nearby if you're lucky. Then at least you have a baseline for yourself of what the straight Bridgeport clone is capable of, and can decide whether you really need to jump up to something heavier like the KRV3000, or something else.

    Also worth pointing out King Rich make a smaller machine, the KRV2000. Like my Supermax it weighs 1200kg, so has a little bit more weight than the original Bridgeport (and many of the cheaper clones), but it has a 3hp motor (mine's 2hp). Only NT30 or R8 though of course. Not sure what the pricing is likely to be, but should be a bit cheaper than the KRV3000. If that class of machine does what you'd want, I think you'll find the quality of the King Rich leaps and bounds ahead of the H&F 'budget' Taiwanese offerings.

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