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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    Default Lathe tooling cost/quality

    I am about to purchase two additional tools complete with inserts to add to the arsenal for my new lathe, these being a 25mm external threading tool (16ER inserts) and a 25mm parting off kit (25mm holder 32X3 blade and suitable inserts). I have received two wildly differing quotes as follows.
    Hare and Forbes Machinery House have the parting off kit for $299 for all three items, with the inserts (10 off)being Kennametal. The external threading tool is $112 and ten AG60 inserts add another $130, with these inserts being Taegutec brand I believe. This comes to $541.
    My second quote is from the Boyar Tool Company and this works out as follows. Parting off tool block (20mm) $180.40, 32X3 blade $92.40, 10 inserts (Ceratizit brand) $178.20. That prices their "kit" at $451. Moving on to their 25mm threading tool at $196 with 10 Carmex brand 16ER AG60 inserts adding another $226.22 to the cost. All up Boyar Tool comes to $874.
    Now I realise that you often get what you pay for, but I'm failing to see what the extra $333 is buying me? Kennametal and Taegutec are well known and respected brands as far as I am aware and while I hadn't heard of Ceratizit or Carmex previously, their websites suggest that they are not cheap Chines knock offs and I can't really see how you could mess up a relatively simple tool holder too badly making the extra cost necessary.
    Has any one got any wise words to add, experience to share or alternate suppliers to try?
    Previous tooling that I bought from Boyar has been good (25mm WNMG style tool holders and boring bar with Tungalloy WNMG inserts), but there was nowhere near this price differential.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
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    York, North Yorkshire UK
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    Hi Karl,

    Apart from everyone trying to make maximum coin, I suspect that you are looking at industrial "I want it now prices" !

    You do right to compare prices, but I think you might find that manufacturers are in the same boat as everyone else and trying to maximise income.
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

  3. #3
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    That's what I figured too Baron. I will go back to Boyar and see if they can sharpen their pencil somewhat as they are a smaller concern and have treated me well in the past. Unless their is a clear superiority that can be demonstrated then I cannot and will not pay such a $$$ premium.

  4. #4
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    Sep 2012
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    Hi Karl,

    I've just posted these pictures in my TCG thread. They might be of interest, AG11-60 inserts.

    18-11-2020-04.jpg 18-11-2020-05.jpg 18-11-2020-06.jpg

    18-11-2020-03.jpg 18-11-2020-02.jpg 18-11-2020-01.jpg

    All three broke in quick succession, I've since broken another tip.
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    melbourne australia
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    Karl,
    I'm actually surprised you got Boyar to reply to you. I found their service hopeless. I suspect a lot of the price difference you are seeing comes down to the buying power of the two companies.
    Chris

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    Mackay North Qld
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    Default

    Like Baron J, I think that with the volume of tooling ( and everything else) purchases crashing to rock bottom due to the bat stew virus, the minimum availability have caused the prices to climb.

    I believe that the current prices are way over what you would expect to pay if the situation was normal.

    I have used Tangeu Tec for years with no problems.Not that I drag out the carbide too often. If I recall Tangue Tec are South Korean.


    I can't see the Boyar mob even coming close to to the Hare and Forbes pricing.

    Grahame

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Tamworth, NSW
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    Default

    I have been looking at buying some carbide tooling and came across these guys - https://www.cutting-edge.net.au/

    I hope I am not hijacking this thread - I can start a new one if the Mods deem it not the right pace but I hoped it could be a further option for comparison.

    Ian

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
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    South of Adelaide
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    most of our threading tools at work are carmex, and i have found them very good quality. Carmex holders use a screw to hold the insert in and i have found them very rigid. some other styles of holder use a leaver to hold the insert in and i have found them to be not as good. I would look into this before making a purchase. Carmex also do some kits with a variety of full profile inserts.

    We also run ceratizit parting tools and have found them very good. they use a special cam action tool to spread the insert pocket to change inserts, and i have found it to be pretty reliable and secure.

    I would check to see what brand the parting off blade HF is quoting, i have found Chinese blades to be pretty average.

    Would defiantly see if boyar can sharpen their pencil, or you could try toolprocure here in Adelaide, but after we exit lockdown.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danger Mouse View Post
    I have been looking at buying some carbide tooling and came across these guys - https://www.cutting-edge.net.au/

    I hope I am not hijacking this thread - I can start a new one if the Mods deem it not the right pace but I hoped it could be a further option for comparison.

    Ian
    I checked out the link for that company. Interesting pricing structure as all parting blade holders are the same price no matter the size and are at the upper end of the prices I'd previously been quoted, but their parting off blades are dirt cheap at $25. They had no threading tools listed on their website.
    Robert Boyar is unavailable until tomorrow, at which point in time I will put the blowtorch on him and see what we come up with. I've found emailing Boyar is a waste of time, but they generally answer their phone however follow up calls are always necessary as they do forget to get back to you quite often.

  10. #10
    elanjacobs is online now Apprentice gear maker and machine doctor
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    We use Sandvik for threading inserts, pretty much all our standard inserts are Iscar. I think our rep throws in holders if we want them when we order inserts, but that's probably just a perk of spending a crapload of money with them

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by elanjacobs View Post
    We use Sandvik for threading inserts, pretty much all our standard inserts are Iscar. I think our rep throws in holders if we want them when we order inserts, but that's probably just a perk of spending a crapload of money with them
    Ah yes the crapload, an ancient measurement defining the degree that a rep is prepared to smooch up to his client. I wish I could spend a crapload in order to get free stuff, but my crapload tree died.
    I can well understand why they would give away free holders as the cost of inserts in a busy workshop would soon cancel out the cost. I was told the figure once that Caterpillar make roughly 1% on a new machine sale as they know that they will have a lifetime of parts and service income from the machine over its lifetime.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapatap View Post
    I would check to see what brand the parting off blade HF is quoting, i have found Chinese blades to be pretty average.

    Would defiantly see if boyar can sharpen their pencil, or you could try toolprocure here in Adelaide, but after we exit lockdown.
    What issues have you had with the Chinese blades?
    According to H&F the 25mm parting off block and 32mm blade are Taiwanese sourced which is usually better but...

  13. #13
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    Oct 2008
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    N.W.Tasmania
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    Default Somewhat off topic

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Robbers View Post
    Ah yes the crapload, an ancient measurement defining the degree that a rep is prepared to smooch up to his client. I wish I could spend a crapload in order to get free stuff, but my crapload tree died.
    I can well understand why they would give away free holders as the cost of inserts in a busy workshop would soon cancel out the cost. I was told the figure once that Caterpillar make roughly 1% on a new machine sale as they know that they will have a lifetime of parts and service income from the machine over its lifetime.
    The mine I used to work at bought a new fleet of Cat 777 80 Ton dump trucks, and when they bought them Caterpillar said that there was a problem with the differentials, and that it was going to be 2 1/2 years before the design team would be able to start on the re design for the diffs. Until then Caterpillar would just replace the diffs as they broke at no charge. As I recall they lasted about 3 months on average, I know we replaced a hell of a lot of diffs before the issue was resolved, it certainly would have made a hole in their profits, but having said that they were generally superior to the Terrex 33-11s we had except for downhill carting, (where they cooked the brakes). The terraces had a retarder in the transmission which took a huge load off the brakes when carting downhill.

  14. #14
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    Well I had a very interesting and educational talk with Robert from Boyar Tooling today and as a result I purchased the aforementioned tooling from him. He did sharpen his pencil a little, but the biggest reduction came from swapping from coated inserts to uncoated. We discussed this and I decided that tool breakage was likely to end an insert before it wore out thus making uncoated a more suitable option for my situation. The parting off block and blade are of Israeli manufacture which naturally will be more expensive than Taiwanese.
    There is no doubt that H&F are cheaper, but Boyar gave me more options and I also learned a lot from our conversation.
    I did raise the issue of Boyar not getting back to people and Robert did say that it unfortunately does happen as he is a single man operation and does the best he can with the resources available.
    For anyone in the market, give them a shot, but you may need to chase him up via phone if you don't get a timely reply.
    I have no affiliation with Boyar other than being a happy return customer.

  15. #15
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    Alexandra Vic
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    Some years ago, (2003ish) boss bought a lathe for the factory and a load of H+F tooling, including a 16mm parting tool holder, double ended blade and inserts. The actual blade was not much better than hoop iron, and the inserts would regularly crumple the lower leading edge and spit the insert out. First one went back for replacement in a couple of days and we went through a couple of others before giving up on them completely, and buying a decent system that was capable of doing the job intended. No more parting issues then.

    I accept that that was a long while ago, and they may have changed their sources in the meantime, but what they have offered in their catalogues in the past year appear to be similar blades.
    I used to be an engineer, I'm not an engineer any more, but on the really good days I can remember when I was.

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