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  1. #1
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    Default Planning to build a mill vise; what style works best?

    I've been keeping an eye on the Kurt website looking out for one of their 'scratch and dent' sales with a view to lashing out on a 6" milling vise; they currently have a pile of DX6 vises with minor flaws at 30% discount. I rang them to discuss shipping and they won't send their 'scratch and dent' items out of the country. Disappointed but it's likely the shipping would have killed the idea anyway.
    I've been wrestling with my mismatched pair of vertex K-type 'lift and squeeze' vises for too long, not interested in spending more cash on knockoff vises that I will be disappointed with so I am thinking I will spend time instead of money and make one. I have some large rectangular sections of 4140 that I think will suit the purpose well. My workshop is well enough equipped to produce a decent precision vise, only limited by my skills so it would be a good learning experience as well.
    This leads to a question- what style of vise have people found gives the best anti-lift effect? I have not had experience with machine vises other than the ones I own and these are hopeless. I suspect the Kurt mechanism might be very difficult to replicate but I'm prepared to give it a crack. Wondering if there are other options that might be more achievable?

  2. #2
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    I've got an OML now that works like this Gerardi. If the part doesn't jam down on both parallels so hard you couldn't get them out with a sledgehammer, it's not square, simple as that. And rigid as anything during a cut.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll and Hyde View Post
    I've got an OML now that works like this Gerardi. If the part doesn't jam down on both parallels so hard you couldn't get them out with a sledgehammer, it's not square, simple as that. And rigid as anything during a cut.

    Was just watching a video of a young asian guy making that style of vise. Good to hear real-life experience of it, looks like a contender.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete O View Post
    Was just watching a video of a young asian guy making that style of vise. Good to hear real-life experience of it, looks like a contender.
    Yeah, if you do some reading on PracticalMachinist, once you get past the patriots, there are a lot of guys on there who think the Kurts are just decent for the price, but far outclassed in actual performance by Gerardi/OML/Chick and many others of that more modular type.

  5. #5
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    There's a pm thread around this. The Kurt range is extensive and includes a variety of designs. Some have the screw anchored at the fixed jaw end and pull the moving jaw to it (said by some to give less lifting of the moving jaw) and some have the screw pushing the moving jaw towards the fixed jaw (said to be not as good). Without scale drawings of the two types I find it hard to fathom the claimed difference in rigidity on the basis of screw pushing or pulling, but there are other factors relevant such as vice body material (iron or steel), the proportions of the travelling jaw and the quality of fit.

    I am looking to get a milling vice with more capacity than the present one, and while there's no way a Kurt is within reach for me, I suspect a vice with a long travelling jaw would assist in resisting lifting and tilting of the moving jaw. Vertex K type and anglock style vices have moving jaws which are not very long in the direction of travel.
    Hydraulic vices seem to have a good reputation and generally seem do have a lengthy travelling jaw, as well as a large capacity between jaws when fully open, but the price again is right out of reach for me.
    Looking around I found that Vertex have a VJ series with a lengthy moving jaw and a wide jaw opening - for example the 6 inch jaw size has a 300mm max opening - see https://www.gettoolsdirect.com.au/ve...ice-vj600.html . Not what I would call cheap, but looks interesting.

    Bill
    Last edited by WCD; 9th Oct 2020 at 05:23 PM. Reason: correction

  6. #6
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    Geradi are available in Australia for really decent prices but i can't remember the distributor, about 1200 for the 5".

    TBH making your own is a vig undertaking and i would just buy one, but if you want to do it id pick a design that didn't require milling an enormous slot in 4140 bar.

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

  7. #7
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    We run OML vices at work and they are amazing, i would never buy any other style of vice.

  8. #8
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    The gerardi looks nice but the price is more than I could ever justify- I'm talking about a hobby workshop after all. I was approaching the Kurt idea with a budget of around $800 or so shipped, which is why the 'scratch & dent' offering was attractive. Is their reputation really all just US parochialism?
    Making my own is actually a pretty attractive proposition and milling the big central slot is not that intimidating with the horizontal mill. Only concern really is getting a finished product that would be worth the time it would take me- I mean in terms of a design that gives a good result with rigidity and no jaw lift. Accuracy and finish is about the hours I'm prepared to put in I think.
    I can't seem to find any site with the OML vises that gives a price. I guess that can't be a good sign.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete O View Post
    The gerardi looks nice but the price is more than I could ever justify- I'm talking about a hobby workshop after all. I was approaching the Kurt idea with a budget of around $800 or so shipped, which is why the 'scratch & dent' offering was attractive. Is their reputation really all just US parochialism?
    Making my own is actually a pretty attractive proposition and milling the big central slot is not that intimidating with the horizontal mill. Only concern really is getting a finished product that would be worth the time it would take me- I mean in terms of a design that gives a good result with rigidity and no jaw lift. Accuracy and finish is about the hours I'm prepared to put in I think.
    I can't seem to find any site with the OML vises that gives a price. I guess that can't be a good sign.
    I can say that if that Gerardi price put you off, you don't need to bother looking (although I'm talking 6inch vice). But I'm young enough that I can justify it on the basis that I'll have it for the next 40 years, which is 40 years of not bludgeoning things onto parallels with a dead blow. I've spent enough years already wrestling with the old Hercus vice I've got trying to get things to sit. I'm still walking funny though.

    But there are these, which might be more tempting: https://assetplant.com.au/product-ca...lar-precision/

    No idea on the quality of course.

    Re Kurts - that was where I started looking. A lot of guys on PM seem unhappy with the new DX6 in comparison to the older model it replaced (number escapes me), and many of them still have a bit of lift. Do some reading on PM and make your own judgements, but that was how I ended up looking at Gerardis. Cutwel in the UK never responded to my enquiry, nor did the Australian distributor I contacted.

    SEI carbide on the other hand responded promptly, and were very helpful along the way. I actually originally bought an OML LC vice, and for various reasons was rather displeased with what I got given the price. It would have worked fine, but there were certain things I would have expected from a Chinese vice, not from a premium priced product, even if it was their 'low cost' line. SEI carbide were equally as displeased with what I got, and rang me up immediately upon receiving the email (full of pictures of various things) from me to tell me so, passed all my comments on to OML, and offered to simply take it away, or to swap me over to the top of the line TCT model for a bit extra (which I opted for). The local rep dropped it off at my house, took the old one, and said have a play with that one for a while, see what you think, and if you're happy we'll invoice you then. He also tells me that OML are making some changes to the LC vice now after that event, so it's quite likely that what you would get for ordering that model now would be of the expected quality.

    The TCT vice is a ripper, and I can highly recommend SEI carbide to deal with if they distribute something you want or need - I really can't fault them at any step in the process.

    But given you're wanting to build your own, all of this discussion of price is fairly irrelevant. You asked for alternatives to a Kurt style, and I reckon that this style would have to be one of the best. I've noticed after getting mine that Stefan Gotteswinter uses a Gerardi, which seems pretty telling to me.
    And in many ways it's probably going to be simpler to build than many other styles. The worst part will be the angles for jaws, I think.

  10. #10
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    Hi Pete, Guys,

    I recall Michael a short time ago, discussing a table vise that he had designed and said that Hemingway in the UK were going to market a kit and castings for it.

    I thought that it was a neat idea to utilise the mill table and create a vise that could be adjusted to a length as long as the mill table. I actually had a play about with Michaels design. Whilst being able to achieve zero jaw lift depended upon your skill and ability to machine two pieces of steel or cast iron with a true pair of 90 degree faces.
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

  11. #11
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    Default

    I don't have one but Glacern vices are supposed to be decent.

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-Glac...-/280948044075

    https://www.glacern.com/vises

    Pete

  12. #12
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    'This Old Tony' has a reasonable suggestion if you have nothing to do.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UGY8iJH_aY

  13. #13
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    I guess we all have to settle on a budget that we are comfortable with- and then exceed it by an amount that we can live with. The Glacern seem to be around the same price point as the Kurt vises in the same style. The price of the Kurt 6" vise at the factory door would make me wince but I would get over it; add shipping to Oz and I just can't do it. Hence the attraction of the 30% discount on the scratch-and-dent stock but they won't ship.
    I have read reviews of the Kurt D6 and unfavourable comparisons to the previous D688 but more often than not they seem to be about not liking change. Which I can understand.
    The Steelmaster vise description doesn't state where they are made, which can surely only mean one thing. And I won't spend money on anything coming out of china when there are other options.
    Getting back to the gerardi style vise, I have the necessary equipment to produce the matching angled surfaces etc and other operations necessary, don't claim by any means to have the skills but I see these projects as a learning opportunity.
    One concern I have just looking at this style of vise with a sliding angle in the jaw is repeatability. Will the clamping face of the fixed jaw- given that it moves in two dimensions with clamping force- reliably end up in the same place between successive parts?
    Also with regard to the table vise- a solution for holding long things, perhaps not ideal for general use and I worry about a mechanism that applies down force by lifting up on the T-slots of the milling machine table.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete O View Post
    One concern I have just looking at this style of vise with a sliding angle in the jaw is repeatability. Will the clamping face of the fixed jaw- given that it moves in two dimensions with clamping force- reliably end up in the same place between successive parts?
    Also with regard to the table vise- a solution for holding long things, perhaps not ideal for general use and I worry about a mechanism that applies down force by lifting up on the T-slots of the milling machine table.
    I'll let someone else (Snapatap?) make a comment on repeatability with the fixed jaw floating - I really haven't tested, because it makes no difference for what I do.

    I'll just point out that if that was a concern for a particular job, you can simply do up the two bolts that attach the actual jaw to lock it in place. The moving jaw is the biggest problem in any (solid) vice for jaw lift, and providing it's built correctly, in that the range of downward motion of the actual jaw exceeds the slop (upward motion) of the sliding jaw carrier (this is a very close fit on these vices), you'll still get an excellent anti-lift function.

    I do agree on the table vice - I believe from what I've read it's also possible to actually noticeably bow the table under the clamping load particularly on longer parts (no actual experience). In addition, my table has a slight hump front to back, and also probably left to right, I think this is not overly unusual, but could be annoying when trying to machine nice square parts.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete O View Post
    ... The price of the Kurt 6" vise at the factory door would make me wince but I would get over it; add shipping to Oz and I just can't do it. Hence the attraction of the 30% discount on the scratch-and-dent stock but they won't ship.
    Can you not overcome that block by going through a shipping forwarder and so using a 'local to seller' address in the process?
    So far has worked for me for items from USA, Germany and UK.

    Bill

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