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10th Oct 2020, 09:59 PM #16Diamond Member
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The repeatability of our OML vices is really good. The jaw can only move down 0.02mm, and with the steep angle on the jaw the side movement is only a few microns. I'm pretty sure Geradi would be cheaper than OML and there are some cheaper generic alternatives but I'm not sure of their quality.
It would be a interesting project to make one of those style vices, but I'm not sure how well the performance of a home built version would stand up to a commercial one.
I wouldn't bother with a table vice unless you have a mill with a really strong table (think elgarmill) unless you like bananas.
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10th Oct 2020, 11:11 PM #17Golden Member
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- Apr 2018
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I'll look into that, have never used one. I got the impression from the sales manager at Kurt that it's not just that they won't ship (although also they stated in an email that they do not ship to private customers in Australia) but that they do not let their factory seconds go out of the US, so it might still not be a goer even with a forwarding service.
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11th Oct 2020, 11:07 AM #18Diamond Member
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- Feb 2013
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I use shipito.com for items that don't post economically or items from suppliers that won't send to 'furrin countries', there are other similar services. When you sign up (free for the basic service) you are assigned a Californian address, the supplier won't know you are outside the US unless you tell them. They have a shipping cost estimator you can play with.
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11th Oct 2020, 02:27 PM #19Golden Member
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I just used the 'shipito' calculator and I'd be looking at almost exactly the purchase price again for shipping. Takes a factory second 6" Kurt vise to between 1200 and 1300 AUD. I guess we have to draw a line somewhere, and this is on the other side of it for me. If I ever get over there perhaps I'll bring one home in my hand luggage.
This leads me back to the build option, and some more questions. Why is cast iron the go-to for high-end vises? Is it simply that the form can be cast to minimise machining, or is it more rigid than steel in similar dimensions? I have a big chunk of what I believe is 4140, around 50x150mm section and around 600 long; by the time it is squared and cleaned up I should be able to get a base for a vise perhaps a shade under 6" wide and plenty long. Is there a down side to using this material, e.g. flex etc?
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11th Oct 2020, 05:08 PM #20Golden Member
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- Dec 2011
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- Sydney
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Rgidity of steel varies little between different compositions, grey CI is around half as rigid as steel (but there are some better grades), ductile CI is better again and nodular CI approaches but less than the rigidity ofsteel.
Thats unless there are special CI versions these days that are better.
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11th Oct 2020, 06:23 PM #21Golden Member
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- Riddells Creek, Vic.
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11th Oct 2020, 09:44 PM #22Most Valued Member
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Pete - feel free to send me back to my box for not addressing your original post, but....
I know you said you don't want to waste any more money on knock-off vices, but I have to say I've been really happy with the 2 anglock style vices I've got from M&G (Magpro).
At about $130 for the 6" version, I reckon you can't go wrong - even if you wanted to simply treat it as rough machined bunch of parts (and they are definitely much better than that).
I honestly haven't measured them to check for accuracy, but since you've got a surface grinder that wouldn't be a show stopper for you anyway.
Its a pity you're not a touch closer and we've got this virus thing going on or you could borrow my 4" one and check it out.
I haven't got any other half decent vices to compare them to (and definitely no high end ones), but I'm not having issues with jaw lift etc, they seem rock solid in use and do everything I ask of them.
They also have a CNC style nodular iron version for $225 that looked really nice when I saw it, but I couldn't justify twice the price of the other one for the same size/function at the time.
Those Kurt/Glacern/Orange/OML etc vices are pure tool for us hobby guys, but most of us are in the same boat - if one arrived at home it may as well be a hooker as its going to cause a divorce!
Steve
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11th Oct 2020, 10:00 PM #23Golden Member
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11th Oct 2020, 10:10 PM #24Golden Member
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I told myself a while back that I would not spend any more money on cheap vises but keep it and put it toward the vise I really wanted. I think since then I have also become a lot more of a sinophobe. I'm actually warming to the build idea. What is the fit and finish like on the vise you bought Steve?
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11th Oct 2020, 10:31 PM #25Most Valued Member
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Planning to build a mill vise; what style works best?
The only things I can really criticise are that out of the box the ground edges are so sharp they are almost dangerous, and there is still some casting flash in the cutouts of the base. I ran over mine with a file and stone to break the edges before using it. The jaws definitely need a stone - they are hard and a file won't touch them.
The handle feels like a pretty sloppy fit on the leadscrew hex for a start, but in use that means you've got a bit of leeway as to when it will engage and you don't have to faff with getting it lined up perfectly before it goes on. Think about trying to get a 10mm allen key into a socket head and you'll know what I'm getting at.
Here's a couple of quick piccy's of the fit/finish. Excuse the remaining swarf
Steve
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12th Oct 2020, 09:06 AM #26Golden Member
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- Apr 2018
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It occurred to me overnight that I should start by seeing if I can improve the tolerances on my existing K-type vises and even look at the possibility of modifying them to have a tapered pull-down jaw system. If I can solve the massive jaw lift on them I might also be able to grind them to matched bed heights; not certain I can get both onto my surface grinder though. Will check.
Another thought that occurred to me...with the tapered jaw system such as on the Gerardi and OML modular vises, why is it necessary to have the anti-lift system on both jaws? Isn't it only the moving jaw that is subject to lifting?
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12th Oct 2020, 09:21 AM #27Most Valued Member
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They both move to avoid scuffing and marking your part or canting it over.
Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
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12th Oct 2020, 10:51 AM #28Golden Member
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- Apr 2019
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- Adelaide
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Pete O - I look forward to following a build thread. Quite an undertaking to build a cheaper vice with better tolerances than off the shelf but I am sure its doable.
Nobody has mentioned the good old Vertex vices. 6" is sub AUD$400 (this is my local SA supplier at $350 - https://generaltools.com.au/product/...-milling-vice/. One of the popular YouTubers did an analysis of one and it came out pretty decent. Not sure of other's experiences. The 6" Vertex is 56kg while the M&G is 36kg but not sure if that is significant - Ox seems happy so maybe not.
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12th Oct 2020, 01:58 PM #29Golden Member
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- Apr 2018
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I just did some measuring of jaw movement on one of my existing k-type vises. The results are not particularly surprising but they are particularly bad.
I clamped my broadhead milling fixture simply because it was still on the mill from my last use. Zeroed a .002mm indicator on to at the moveable jaw side, with the jaw not touching the work
jaw lift- zeroed.jpg
The part starts to lift immediately the jaw contacts it. This was on very light contact, .020mm lift
jaw lift- first contact .020mm.jpg
Do the vise up tight and this is the effect, .038mm
jaw lift tight- .038mm.jpg
Measured at the top of moveable jaw itself I could get .062mm without even trying.
moveable jaw lift .062mm.jpg
Measured at the 'fixed' jaw side; found it is not quite as fixed as you might think. .023mm lift here.
fixed jaw lift- .023mm.jpg
so it seems there is some arching of the spine involved as well. Presumably the middle of the vise bed is lifting even more than this, I did not measure there.
I decided to clamp a parallel in the base of the jaws. There is actually negative lift now, i.e. the jaw pulls the part down into the vise bed, from sitting lightly in the vise it went down .024mm
negative jaw lift at bottom .024mm.jpg
then sat it on some parallels that brought it up to the top of the jaws. This took the cake. .195mm lift at the moving jaw side- nearly lapped the indicator.
jaw lift at top .195mm.jpg
and .068mm lift of the 'fixed' jaw side.
fixed jaw lift at top .068mm.jpg
This is the 'better' of the two of these vises that I have, at least in that it does not have as many apprentice marks as the other. The first came with my mill, I bought the second very cheap at a clearing sale, decided it would be worthwhile to have a pair. The bed heights differ by around half a mm or so, about as close to a 'pair' as the manufacturer was likely to achieve I guess.
I stripped down my other vise to have a bit of a play. The fitting is appalling. Critical surfaces have not been ground, no attempt to make it fit for purpose really. I've made a start on it by grinding the base flat; had to take off around .06mm from the high areas to achieve an all-over grind. Probably never going to be much more than a door stop.
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12th Oct 2020, 02:12 PM #30Most Valued Member
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Planning to build a mill vise; what style works best?
Couple of quick ones from my M&G 6" for comparison:
321 block on parallels raising it up to about 10mm below the top of the jaws:
Only a cheap 0.01mm indicator, but rises about 0.01 when I tighten it. Thats starting off from just a bit of hand pressure to snug it down on teh parallels and a smidgeon of clamp to make sure things aren't loose.
Tightened was just a decent bit on the handle, no gorilla grunting, pipe extension or my full 100kg
Also bearing in mind that this is straight out of the box apart from some deburing. Haven't checked the flatness of the base or of my mill table.
HTH
Steve
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