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  1. #1
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    Default What's in a name? Inserts under the microscope (literally)

    Got a new toy from Banggood today (finally). It's an Andonstar AD407 USB powered microscope with a 7 inch display on top. So of course, I had to find things to put under it (once I managed to pry SWMBO off the thing!). Results were kind of interesting. Apologies for the 'noisy' photos, and don't take that as a reflection of the picture quality on screen, as on the unit the picture is absolutely clear as day. The camera function just seems to struggle a little.

    First up, a batch of 3 "Mitsubishi" CCMT inserts. All out of the same box, and I had a feeling they were probably knockoffs - but you decide...

    2020_0125_204545_001_1400x1050.jpg

    Interesting that one of them appears to have been deburred? Loving the nose "radius"....

    This next one is really interesting to me - on the right, a "Tungaloy" CCMT. Not sure whether they're knockoffs, I don't even remember where they came from. I either bought them to try cause they were cheap, or they came with a toolholder out of China. But the one on the left is branded "Hu Li Gen", and definitely just came with a toolholder (almost free, if I remember correctly.)

    2020_0125_204704_002_1400x1050.jpg

    Considering they're complete no-name Chinese inserts, they actually look pretty good really. The "Tungaloy" don't look too bad either, keeping in mind they are 'M' inserts, which I believe are generally just 'as molded'...

    Next up, on the left, a Mitsubishi CCMT (09T302 NX2525 grade, bought from CTC many years ago, hopefully genuine for the price!), vs a used... something. don't remember what. But I can only just see that this tip might not be right by eye, if I'm on the right angle, and I have pretty decent eyesight. The Mitsubishi looks nice enough along the edge, but the 'edge radius' standard to your normal insert is pretty visible.

    2020_0125_204822_003_1400x1050.jpg

    A Korloy parting insert and a Tungaloy threading insert - probably genuine by the looks of them:

    2020_0125_212116_002_1400x1050.jpg
    2020_0125_212721_007_1400x1050.jpg

    But the prizewinner for me is this one - I bought a batch of these twin tip Sumitomo CBN inserts in CCMT a while ago at $5 each. Excellent things to have around, I'm still on my first one, which although the tips are destroyed, still rip through hardened material nicely for getting under the skin. Under the microscope though, they're pretty impressive!

    2020_0125_212519_005_1400x1050.jpg

    And the prize for the biggest disappointment? These "Korloy" SEHT aluminium inserts for my facemill. I would be hoping they're knockoffs!

    2020_0125_215649_017_1400x1050.jpg
    2020_0125_215751_018_1400x1050.jpg

    I like the way they're actually ground, but not right up to the actuall cutting edge No wonder they weren't very impressive in use. Time to get on with finishing up that low speed 'Glendo" clone and make a jig for grinding SExx inserts, the "Mitsubishi" knockoffs I have for steel also don't have enough clearance angle for the amount of rake in the facemill, which means they rub about 1.5mm behind the cutting edge rather than actually cutting anything. Not sure whether genuine would still have that problem or not....

    And finally, I bought a batch of carbide endmills from Aliexpress recently, mostly from a seller called "Xuhan cutting tools." They looked pretty high quality by eye when they first turned up, and every edge feels razor sharp - the microscope tends to agree. This is just one cutting edge, but the whole thing is very nicely ground. I bought a bunch of 12mm, and also a couple of assortments in higher hardness grades, all of them present as very high quality upon inspections, and quite reasonably priced.

    2020_0125_211919_001_1400x1050.jpg

    So what have I learned? About what I already knew. Carbide doesn't have a sharp edge as molded (obvious!) Many of my inserts are likely knockoffs, but they do still work fine (in lathe tooling anyway) despite that. But if struggling for finish on a light cut, swap to my 'probably genuine' ones, as the nose radius area on some of them is pretty horrendous. And my 'ground' inserts aren't exactly that sharp on the edge. They do tend to shave the fingernail, but I have to suspect real ones would have a cleaner edge. What surprised me though was how decent the complete no-name branded ones were, in fact better than many of the knockoffs!

    And I was also surprised how good my freehand grinding on the insert for my scraper looked... Pretty clean and even, I expected a bit of a horror show.

  2. #2
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    Default

    I'm happy to stick an Iscar CCMT and CCGT in the post if you want to compare those as well, their ground inserts are super sharp

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Default

    Thanks for going to effort mate. Good reading.

    Sent from my SM-G980F using Tapatalk

  4. #4
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    Default

    Thanks for the report, on both the microscope and the carbide tips. Interesting reading.
    Just had a quick look on flea bay and not to badly priced either.
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by elanjacobs View Post
    I'm happy to stick an Iscar CCMT and CCGT in the post if you want to compare those as well, their ground inserts are super sharp
    I appreciate the offer, and it could be kind of interesting, but unless other members want to see the difference, I'll save you the hassle of going to the post office. Not looking to buy anymore CCMTs for about 10 years, going by the 80 odd I have kicking around here - I normally use cheese grade HSS on ally, and when I'm lazy or need a particular shape the regular inserts usually do me fine. I would have had some Iscar IC238s in SE something something for my facemill I could have inspected, but apparently Latvia stopped posting to Australia during Covid times. I will get some decent inserts for that thing at some stage, facemills seem to be far more picky than lathe tooling.


    Quote Originally Posted by KBs PensNmore View Post
    Thanks for the report, on both the microscope and the carbide tips. Interesting reading.
    Just had a quick look on flea bay and not to badly priced either.
    Kryn
    A lot cheaper on Banggood, if you were after one - https://au.banggood.com/Andonstar-AD...r_warehouse=CN

    Supposedly the cream of the crop for this level of consumer product. Did a bit of research before buying, as I've used a few of this type of cheap video dependent type device before (not microscopes) in various roles, and the cheap stuff can often be next to useless in terms of image quality. Plenty of cheaper variants around on eBay, but the Andonstar range seem to be universally liked with good reviews and often used by guys that do SMD soldering type work through them. The ADSM30...something... was the previous flagship, and has some advantages for some applications, but the pros of this version were better for me - think the biggest difference was the refresh rate of the display for doing live soldering work under it or something like that.

    You can also plug it into a TV with the supplied mini HDMI to HDMI cable, so if you're really going blind, you can look at the subject on your 100 inch TV, if you've got one (I don't, my loungeroom is WAY too small)...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll and Hyde View Post
    You can also plug it into a TV with the supplied mini HDMI to HDMI cable, so if you're really going blind, you can look at the subject on your 100 inch TV, if you've got one (I don't, my loungeroom is WAY too small)...
    I for one wouldn't mind seeing the difference on a "better" quality tip that Elan offered you.
    The price on Bangood is nearly half that of flea bay!!!!
    What's a TV, haven't seen one for nearly 2 years.
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  7. #7
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    I'm not what one would call a big TC tip user as I mainly use Crobalt or HSS. But the other day I needed a dozen of 38 mm diameter slugs about 20 mm long. I looked in my steel stash and closest were some 40mm hard chromed bars (Think they fell off the back of a truck). Precision was not an issue but reasonable finish was because I am going to blue them.

    The Crobalt bit I had on the tool post was able to remove the hard chrome layer using ~1/2mm deep cut, but as the steel was also pretty hard the Crobalt was clearly being affected by the chrome layer and so its edge didn't last all that long, after several touch ups I thought time to get out some TC tips.

    The tip already on the left leaning TC tip hold was a no name tip that looked a bit dull but instead of replacing it I gave both sides of the tip a 2s touch up on a diamond wheel. WOW- it fair ripped through that hard chrome plating and the steel was like butter to it. The cutting ability was easily as good as some of the branded tips I have used in the past. OK maybe the no name tip would not last as look in production mode but that's no an issue for me. I subsequently found out how hard the steel itself was when I drilled some 12mm diameter holes in the slugs - it was definitely up there.

    The finish was interesting - it's like it had a sweet spot involving depth and feed speed - at times it was as good as get with Crobalt or HSS. Could never quite nail the sweet spot down but it was smooth enough for my purposes.

  8. #8
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    The CBN insert appears to have a ground chamfer, not what I would have expected to see? That would increase the strength of
    the cutting edge but also increase the load required to cut with it.
    J&H you might be interested in a short post I recently did with a cheap microscope in my radius grinding thread in the projects section.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by shedhappens View Post
    The CBN insert appears to have a ground chamfer, not what I would have expected to see? That would increase the strength of
    the cutting edge but also increase the load required to cut with it.
    J&H you might be interested in a short post I recently did with a cheap microscope in my radius grinding thread in the projects section.
    Correct on all counts. While these inserts are technically in the CCxx form factor (full number is Sumitomo 2NUCCMW09T308 in BN300 grade), they're dead flat across the top. So predominantly neutral rake in most cheap holders, and the chamfered edge would make them act slightly more like a negative rake - although it is a tiny chamfer about 0.1mm at a guess by squinting. Apparently I can turn on grid lines in the microscope that can be used for measuring, but I haven't played with that yet.

    As you say, the reasons for it are pretty self evident when you consider what a CBN insert is going to be used for. I tend to start off on materials I suspect to be hardened with a few buggered regular inserts (I keep them all, for whatever nefarious purposes. Some might be able to be freshened up if I do a bit of sorting and finish the Glendo copy). If the material destroys what remains of the tips, I move to the CBN insert to get down to the softer core. It works very well on my little AL335, and is quite happy with fairly light cuts, as well as being able to move a lot of material if needed. Nothing quite focuses the mind like levitating glowing red strings of swarf in front of you when you really get into it.

    For a laugh, I threw the one I've been using under the microscope. This tip is still in active service, and despite the way it looks, it still works just fine for the purpose I use it for. Tend to use this tip more for getting through interrupted cut sections or hard weld buildup, but it actually still gives a reasonable finish and doesn't bang and crash like you might expect - still smoother running than murdering a standard insert. I've used this corner for lightening an entire gearset in a racecar, among other things, and the other side is fine (think I've only used it a handful of times). Definitely got my $5 worth out of this one already. No idea what the normal price would be for them though, being twin tip rather than single I wouldn't be surprised if they were something like $75 each.

    2020_0126_224810_019.jpg

    I'll wonder off and have a look in your thread, be nice to have ideas for something else to use this thing for beside getting those bloody invisible splinters out, which will likely be it's primary purpose...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by shedhappens View Post
    The CBN insert appears to have a ground chamfer, not what I would have expected to see? That would increase the strength of
    the cutting edge but also increase the load required to cut with it.
    J&H you might be interested in a short post I recently did with a cheap microscope in my radius grinding thread in the projects section.
    If the edge of the CBN was sharp, the edge would chip away very quickly and give poor tool life. With a CBN insert like that max depth of cut would only be maybe .3mm, I normally only finish with a .1 cut so the cutting forces aren't very high.

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