Thread: M&G Productions ER40 D1-4 chuck and collets, a brief review.

Had a little delivery today, I ordered a D1-4 ER40 collet chuck and a set of the high precision 0.008mm ER40 collets, as well as an ER40 Joe block.

I had some trepidation about ordering an integral back collet chuck, as particularly with D1-4 5c chucks it seems pretty common to get one where the D1-4 taper is not concentric to the 5c taper, but given the price I figured I could always make my own back plate if it was really wonky, or grind it if it was close.

First impressions on pulling it out the box were that it's nicely finished all round, I could maybe whinge a tiny bit of dagginess on the threads towards the back if I was being super picky, but we're really splitting hairs at this point, it's very very minor. The nut is very solid, although it does appear that the black surface is probably powdercoat - again, a minor thing really.

So next I tried it on the spindle nose, and found what I fully expected, which was that the flat face meets the spindle before the taper engages. This is most likely NOT a reflection on M&Gs product, I have a sneaking suspicion that my spindle taper is on the low side of the tolerance, and one of the first jobs when I got the lathe involved taking a bit off the flat on my 3 jaw chuck for the same reason. I wouldn't be surprised to get the same result with a Bison or similar. I'd much rather have it this way than the taper on the chuck be too small!

Moving onwards, the camlocks didn't engage, as the pins came screwed much too far in. Not a big deal, simply unscrewed them until the little groove around the camlock pins was just above flush to the chuck, and that worked out fine. Checking the ER40 taper with my Mitutoyo indicator shows just fractionally under 0.02mm runout front and back, which is to be expected given the spindle taper isn't engaging (blued the D1-4 taper in the chuck with texta to confirm this). I can also move the 'high' point to a different location by slightly releasing the camlocks, and tapping the chuck around with a plastic mallet, but the maximum amount remains the same. Runout on the 125mm OD of the chuck appears to match the ER40 taper. Which would suggest to me that the ER40 taper is most likely absolutely bang on to the D1-4 taper, and there is 0.02mm of slop between the lathes D1-4 and the chucks D1-4. I expect once I get to skimming the back of it that any remaining runout will be almost undetectable. It doesn't appear to be super hard, so I should be able to skim it fine.

Happy with that, I unwrapped a 12mm ER40 collet, and inspected it. Now I have seen a post on here before that someone was very disappointed with their set of 0.008mm collets, lots of burrs and runout, and I'm pleased to report that my set don't seem to have any burrs at all, they look pretty good. Clicked the collet into the nut, put it in the chuck, and threw in a 12mm drill bit that I have previous discovered runs very accurate on the shank, when I was checking out runout of an integral R8 keyless chuck I bought from Hardex on Ebay (I haven't yet used it very much, but it seems a nice bit of kit so far. I may post more on this when I've tested it's holding power on bigger drills in steel). As a side note, and a little point of reference, I discovered on the same day that my CTC tools R8-ER32 collet chuck has 0.04mm runout on the ER taper. Haven't looked further into that, other than checking the R8 taper in the mill, which seems fine.

Total runout went to a whisker under 0.03mm, keeping in mind that about 0.02mm is present in the chuck as it stands. Rotating the collet and drill bit to various positions, I managed to get it down to a bit over 0.01mm, and never managed worse than the initial figure. I also tried out a 16mm collet with the same result. As far as I can tell, those two collets meet the quoted spec of 0.008mm. They may not be any better than that, but certainly not much worse, if at all.

So needless to say, I'm very happy with the purchase at this stage! I haven't checked out the Joe collet block yet, other than to have a look at it (looks just fine!), but I'll update this post if I find anything horrible about it or discover any nasties in the other 22 collets. Now, I just need to figure out how much to take off the back of the chuck... (and reassemble my compound to do it).

*EDIT* I forgot to mention, the action of the collets in the chuck is really nice, they seat very positively, and they release very very nicely when the nut tugs on them - just a little click, and they're free. Hard to describe, but it feels like they're perfectly matched, and feels nicer than my CTC ER32 holder I run in the mill, which has kind of a spongy feel to the ejection action.

If you live in or around Melbourne, it is well worth visiting M&G, Alex is a super nice bloke and they have lots and lots of goodies, so take plenty of cash with you. I have called in several times with my off road van in tow when returning from our Winter Escapes, to places like outback Queensland or The Kimberley. On my first trip I bought a 4"machinists vise, and when I unpacked it back here in Tasmania, I discovered a bit of a bruise on the upper surface of the bed of the vise. I had a return trip about 6 months later, took the vise with me and even though it was really only cosmetic damage, Alex changed it for a good one no questions asked. I bought a set of the standard precision ER40 collets and a Joe Block as well, while so far I have only used a couple of the collets, I have had no issues with them, and the set of HSSCo drill bits up to 13mm for only $50ish have been excellent. I highly recommend this business.

Thanks for the review.

I have been waiting for the exact combo of ER40 collet chuck, collets and Joe ER40 block to be back in stock!

My spindle nose is actually a variant of A1-4 with a slightly non standard bolt pattern (Hercus PC200).

I believe I'll by able to just remove the camlock pins and drill new mounting holes - does that seem feasible?

Originally Posted by pippin88

I believe I'll by able to just remove the camlock pins and drill new mounting holes - does that seem feasible?

From the brief file test I gave it, it seems to be a reasonably tough steel, but I don't think its hardened, file makes some good inroads. I think I'd be able to drill it just fine with my regular cobalt bits if required. I may need to sink the counterbore a little deeper for the little allen key screws that retain the camlocks after I skim it, so might have a definite answer for you. The way it turns will be a decent indicator anyway. May (or may not!) get to it tomorrow....

And yes, the camlock pins just unscrew once you take the retaining screw out.

Originally Posted by Ropetangler

If you live in or around Melbourne, it is well worth visiting M&G, Alex is a super nice bloke and they have lots and lots of goodies, so take plenty of cash with you. I have called in several times with my off road van in tow when returning from our Winter Escapes, to places like outback Queensland or The Kimberley. On my first trip I bought a 4"machinists vise, and when I unpacked it back here in Tasmania, I discovered a bit of a bruise on the upper surface of the bed of the vise. I had a return trip about 6 months later, took the vise with me and even though it was really only cosmetic damage, Alex changed it for a good one no questions asked. I bought a set of the standard precision ER40 collets and a Joe Block as well, while so far I have only used a couple of the collets, I have had no issues with them, and the set of HSSCo drill bits up to 13mm for only $50ish have been excellent. I highly recommend this business.

does he have a shop?

Originally Posted by azzrock

does he have a shop?

More of a wharehouse but when I was there last, well before COVID19 was an issue, he said that they had a move planned, and from memory the move was going to be taking place about the time that Covid eventually began making headlines. Alex has a business partner whom I have never met, and it would seem that Felix spends a lot of time in China where they either make or source their products. I have their phone numbers, but will PM them to you if you like so you can call Alex yourself to find when he will be at his store if you want to call in.

The new warehouse address at Truganina is on their web page now.
http://www.mag-pro.com.au/article.php?id=4

Steve

I couldn't get the website to work.

Finally worked out it will only work without the www.

http://mag-pro.com.au works

http://www.mag-pro.com.au does not work

Given google links to www.mag... it's a problem.

(someone has a poorly configured domain hosting / webserver)

It turns out I have both those things (but not a Joe block), but I got them off their Ebay store, as their kooky freight pricing on their site has always put me off.

On my machine, the collet chuck binds up on the nose taper before the flat faces meet. I assume the cure for this is to machine the chuck's taper slightly larger, but buggered if I know how to do this with any degree of accuracy

Originally Posted by RustyArc

It turns out I have both those things (but not a Joe block), but I got them off their Ebay store, as their kooky freight pricing on their site has always put me off.

On my machine, the collet chuck binds up on the nose taper before the flat faces meet. I assume the cure for this is to machine the chuck's taper slightly larger, but buggered if I know how to do this with any degree of accuracy

Is the gap with the camlocks tightened, or before? And if before, does it go away when the camlocks are tightened? The spec for D1 chucks is actually for there to be a slight gap when the camlocks are 'loosely' tightened, which is then closed up when the camlocks are fully tight. This is intended to mate both the tapered face and the flat face intimately for best repeatability.

When discussion of this matter comes up on most forums, there are normally a few in the camp that this can't possibly be correct, so I've attached a PDF of fitting instructions for Rohm chucks. See page 16, step 3, which outlines the specification for this gap. If your chucks are fitted to this specification, yes, you will need a light bump with a dead blow mallet to release the taper after undoing the camlocks. As you would expect. The R8 taper is very close to the D1 spindle nose taper, and although nominally self releasing, in practice usually requires a sharp rap to get it to release (if you're using solid tooling rather than collets).

Now, if your gap remains after tightening the camlocks, then yes, you need to cut the taper a touch bigger to correct it. The ideal way to prepare would be chuck up a suitable size piece of stock in your second best chuck, and make a dummy spindle nose, blueing it for fit against your best chuck to check your taper angle.

Taper angle can be set a few ways - indicating off the spindle nose is the quick and dirty way, and does work, but the taper is pretty short. Sine bar is another way, but I came across a video somewhere that had, to my mind, a better method. Buggered if I can remember where, but it involved an indicator mounted on the tool post, with a ground bar in the chuck, and moving the compound a set distance. Trigonometry can be used to determine how far the indicator should move at the desired angle if you move the compound a known amount.

With regard to actually setting up the ER chuck - I could not, for the life of me, get the back face to run true when I put it in my 4 jaw. Not sure whether the front face was not parallel to the rear (now I have a small surface plate, I probably could have checked that.) Anyway, my solution was to chuck up some bar in the 3 jaw and turn to 25mm. Then I fitted the 25mm collet into the ER chuck, and clamped the whole shebang onto the bar. Of course, you're at the mercy of your collets here, but the back face ran far closer to true with a little tap tap tappy (not QUITE perfect though) than I'd ever managed in the 4 jaw. I then took the 3 jaw off, with the whole lot in it, and trial fitted to my spindle, as I couldn't be bothered making a dummy taper just to face the flat.

If you try this, and the taper is running out a tiny bit, you may be able to cancel it out by rotating the collet in the chuck a bit. Get it as good as you can, and you can always lightly skim the back face in the same setup so that it's square to the taper. You may need to if you overshoot the taper diameter anyway! I don't think the collet seat is hardened, so once you have the fit on the spindle right, you can always recut the ER taper with the chuck mounted on the machine. I haven't bothered, as the runout I have is slightly less (or more, don't remember exactly) than the collet runout. This means that if I have something super critical, I can actually get closer by orienting the collet to cancel out the chuck runout. From memory, this would give me about 0.002mm runout, where if the chuck was dead nuts, I'd be stuck with the 0.008mm runout of the collet.

Of course, I don't have a ground bar to check that the collet taper is parallel to the spindle axis, and my lathe isn't quite aligned well enough to do that check anyway yet. So I may end up recutting it at some point.

*EDIT* On a side note, if you send him an email through the address on his website, he does the right postage. My lot cost me $15 across Melbourne, instead of the $75 his website wanted. Works out a bit cheaper than his eBay stores. Just remember his store prices are ex. GST.

The chucks that came with my lathe all behave as described - they seat fully, and require a decent, but not crazy tap with a soft hammer to get off. I went and checked the fit of the ER40 chuck again, and with the cams pulled in tighter than I'm really comfortable with, I can still get a 0.04mm feeler gauge almost all the way around.

I might try contacting MG Pro and see if they might offer a solution before I head down the correction path. That said, even if correction is the only option, I don't feel I have the skill or experience to work at that level of precision.

Originally Posted by RustyArc

That said, even if correction is the only option, I don't feel I have the skill or experience to work at that level of precision.

Only one way to get there!

At that gap, you will almost certainly overshoot the taper if you're turning, and need to face the flat. However, the good news is that at this point, it gets less sensitive. Discussion on Practical Machinist suggests that the ratio is between 1:8 and 1:10 - as in, for every 0.01mm of clearance on the taper, 0.1mm needs to be removed from the flat face. Someone with a head for maths I'm sure could work it out exactly, but the practical upshot is that if the flat face meets before the taper, and you go off the Rohm specs, of a max 0.05mm clearance when 'loose', then you can take a little over 0.05mm off the face in a pass, which is not too strenous (in my opinion anyway, and I wouldn't call myself a precision machinist by any stretch). You can use plastiguage (for checking automotive bearing clearances most commonly, should be available at Repco/Bursons) to check the clearance on your taper and calculate exactly how much you actually need, if you want to get all science on it.

Certainly, if M&G will change it over, that is an excellent option, as you're very very close - hopefully within manufacturing tolerances! If not, you don't have a lot to lose? At least go through the setup stage, and try to dial it all in using an indicator - you can always back out before taking the cut, but the act of going through the setup will at least teach you something.

Someone may jump in and say this is the wrong way, dunno really

but I have adjusted the fitment of chucks in the past by machining up a dummy spindle, use some decent material, harder the better, then use it to lap the taper in the chuck, some automotive valve lapping paste works fine, lap it a little, check for fitment on lathe, rinse and repeat, once you have the dummy spindle done takes under an hour stopping to check it all the time. You need to remove so little material off the taper that pretty much any cut in a lathe will overshoot it.

What great thread. Thanks all. I can’t find an available ER32 to D1-3 and I share the concern that I might buy one that didn’t run quite true anyway so I’m happy to cobble one together. I see that M&G offer a D1-3 flange for a very good price and I’m encouraged by the review comments in this thread. The most suitable mate for it is an ER32 chuck on a 100 mm flange available from Ausee. Does anyone know anything about products from Ausee?

For the record I find the D1 taper quoted as 7°7’30” and the tan of that is 1:8.0000 which is close enough to 1:8 for me, at least on most days, and I assume that 7°7’30” is actually an approximation for 1 in 8.

What I intend to do is step a bit of 32 mm bar down to the bore of the ER32 nut, long enough for the chuck jaws plus the length of the nut. I would slip the nut onto the reduced shank with the thread facing the 32 mm dia and grip the reduced dia tightly in the chuck, taping the nut back against the jaws to stop it rattling around. Now I set the top slide to 8° for the ER32 taper. I do this by scribing two lines a known largest possible distance apart on the side of the top slide which might be 75 mm on mine. I wind the slide until one of the lines is aligned with the centre of rotation of the slide and swing it to 8°. I set my dial gauge on the bed with it’s spindle visually aligned with the cross slide axis, zero the dial gauge at the scribe at rotation centre and wind the carriage along until the dial gauge aligns with the second scribe. At this point the dial gauge should read 75 sin 8° = 10. 438 . Once it does, and I will have to go back and forward a few times adjusting until it does I can turn the ER32 taper on the 32 dia in the chuck until the chuck goes on far enough for the nut to clamp it there. I don’t think I could get it to run any truer than that. Now I can face the excess off the flange until it is thick enough for the threaded length of the camlock spindles and bore a short location dia which will be about 55mm or so.

If necessary I will address the fit of the D1-3 flange to the spindle nose then mount it and face it off until I just break into the camlock spindle counterbores leaving the 55 mm or so spigot. I will press the two together and drill and tap the threaded holes for the camlock spindles and the lock screws. All I have to do now is mount the assembly and turn off the excess dia down to the 92 or so. I think that should work.

Originally Posted by Hugh Venables

...Does anyone know anything about products from Ausee?

Similar level of Asian made stuff as available everywhere else, products are OK, the service they provide...forum rules prevent me from elaborating on that one..