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  1. #1
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    May 2020
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    s.w. sydney
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    Default design plans for trencher, where to get?

    hi, i want to make a three point linkage trenching machine, three point linkage means that it goes on the back of a tractor. preferably it will run with a hydraulic motor.

    it would save me a stack of time if there was some basic plans, the next best thing is copying one (which i don,t have one to copy).

    i,ve looked on the net and no joy.

    maybe somebody has an idea where to get plans, no harm in asking right?

  2. #2
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    Jun 2010
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    Canberra
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    Default

    Can't help you with plans, but will mention my experience. I had a job where I needed to dig a 500m or so trench through rocky soil. After hunting around for a suitable used trencher, I bought a new Digga hydraulic trencher that was designed to fit to a Dingo, but fabricated an adaptor to mount it on the 3PL of a tractor.

    That all worked, but when it came to actually trenching, it was a very slow process - hooked up to an 85HP tractor, it simply could not dig very fast at all without stalling. I did a little more research, and worked out that the tractor could deliver 40 LPM of hydraulic flow at a maximum pressure of 130 Bar - figures that are pretty common for small tractors. In power terms, that's just 12HP. My conclusion was that tractors are designed to deliver their power via the PTO, not the hydraulics.

    I ended up using an actual Dingo to finish the trenching - it's a machine designed to deliver all its power via the hydraulics, so with a 27HP engine, it could deliver 25HP to the trencher.

    So if you're planning to use the trencher with a tractor, I'd be thinking about a PTO-driven design, and maybe just use the hydraulics to raise and lower the bar.

  3. #3
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    May 2020
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    s.w. sydney
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    Default

    hey rusty, its a good idea to convert the digga to a three point linkage. and those diggas aren,t cheap.

    at this time, i,m fishing around for some answers , before i start this project. the hydraulic capacity is the other side of the equation. the smallest trencher that digga makes ,needs a flow between 40l/m and 90l/m . my old fiat tractor is 65hp, and still is only 29l/m. i,ve been told that a modification to the pump gear and/or a spring pressure change may assist , and the fiat service guy says that a hyolic guy is the one to talk to. so thats where i,m headed with that.

    that pto idea is great. and a pto trencher is on the market (but very expensive). anyway, how do i get mechanical pto drive to trencher chain (90 degree gearbox?), with articulation and all that, i think hydraulic is simpler.

  4. #4
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    Jun 2010
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    Canberra
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    If I were going to have a go at making one now, I'd be stealing this design:
    https://www.trenchmasterdigger.com/

    You can't see it, but I'm guessing they're using a post hole digger gearbox like this:
    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/POST-HOL...cAAOSw5Ylb8lH5

    Combined with a custom auger where they're supporting it at both ends, and using their own fabricated flights with tungsten carbide teeth.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Charlestown NSW
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    65
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    Default

    For ideas on getting drive from a PTO, do a search on "Howard DH22 rotary hoe" or "Howard DH22 Tractor rotary hoe".
    They were a small tractor (from the 1940's) specifically designed to have a rotary hoe attached to the back (Howard invented the rotary hoe). Australian made as well.
    Power came through the centre to a 90deg gearbox (cant remember what type though) and then off to the LHS of the machine. Sprocket on the end driving a chain that in turn drove the rotary hoe itself. The arm supporting the hoe and chain drive pivoted on the same axis as the shaft. That was how the cutting depth was set.

    For your design you could possible use a live axle diff housing (and diff) from a car or ute.

    peter

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2020
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    s.w. sydney
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    Default

    i,ll check it out, bollie. car diffs were used for post digga gearboxes too.

    thanks

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Lebrina
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    1,910

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RustyArc View Post
    Can't help you with plans, but will mention my experience. I had a job where I needed to dig a 500m or so trench through rocky soil. After hunting around for a suitable used trencher, I bought a new Digga hydraulic trencher that was designed to fit to a Dingo, but fabricated an adaptor to mount it on the 3PL of a tractor.

    That all worked, but when it came to actually trenching, it was a very slow process - hooked up to an 85HP tractor, it simply could not dig very fast at all without stalling. I did a little more research, and worked out that the tractor could deliver 40 LPM of hydraulic flow at a maximum pressure of 130 Bar - figures that are pretty common for small tractors. In power terms, that's just 12HP. My conclusion was that tractors are designed to deliver their power via the PTO, not the hydraulics.

    I ended up using an actual Dingo to finish the trenching - it's a machine designed to deliver all its power via the hydraulics, so with a 27HP engine, it could deliver 25HP to the trencher.

    So if you're planning to use the trencher with a tractor, I'd be thinking about a PTO-driven design, and maybe just use the hydraulics to raise and lower the bar.
    Those hydraulic figures for the tractor are pretty anaemic - 130 BAR (a fraction under 1900 PSI) combined 40LPM are both quite low for anything post early eighties.
    While a Dingo is a hydraulic pump on wheels, 25 hydraulic horsepower from a 27HP engine is pretty optimistic, even more so when the power to actually move the machine is also subtracted from the total available.
    I definitely agree that the PTO is the way to go as far as harnessing power, but bear in mind that not all tractors will have low enough crawl gears to provide suitable travel speeds while keeping PTO speed up. A two stage clutch or IPTO will help, albeit at the expense of clutch wear.
    I would much prefer to sit in the seat of a tractor or purpose built trencher over standing on a Dingo being thrown around any day.

  8. #8
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    Jun 2010
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    Canberra
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Robbers View Post
    Those hydraulic figures for the tractor are pretty anaemic - 130 BAR (a fraction under 1900 PSI) combined 40LPM are both quite low for anything post early eighties.
    Just the spec of the machine I had to work with. It was a 2008 model, and I was wrong, it had a 95HP engine. Go look at the spec for your common or garden 50HP Kubota - the pressure is probably a bit higher, but the flow will be in the same ballpark.

    That said, if the OP's tractor happens to have much better hydraulic specs, then maybe that's a better option.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyArc View Post
    Just the spec of the machine I had to work with. It was a 2008 model, and I was wrong, it had a 95HP engine. Go look at the spec for your common or garden 50HP Kubota - the pressure is probably a bit higher, but the flow will be in the same ballpark.

    That said, if the OP's tractor happens to have much better hydraulic specs, then maybe that's a better option.
    The unfortunate achilles heel of tractors in this role, with the exception of HST models, is the mechanical relationship between trencher speed/power and machine travel speed. Rocky ground makes this even worse as the trencher is working much harder than if sandy loam is being worked.
    If we look at machines designed for the purpose such as self propelled trenchers, skid steer loaders and even the Dingo type platform, they all have the ability to run the engine at full noise, giving full flow and pressure from the implement pump, while the machine crawls or is stationary, without the need to disengage and re engage clutches and the associated wear.
    I have a trencher off a Dingo that I acquired and at some point I intend to marry it to my Toyota Huski skid steer.
    This machine looks an interesting solution for a 3PL trencher. Trenchmaster Digging System – Innovative and effecient trenching and material handling system It appears that a post hole auger gearbox (readily available from the likes of BareCo) would be all that was required to drive this.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
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    Healesville
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    Default

    You don't say what size or purpose or type of trench you want.
    This might be a better option for you, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3LlZ0N6AYA

  11. #11
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    May 2020
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    s.w. sydney
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shedhappens View Post
    You don't say what size or purpose or type of trench you want.
    This might be a better option for you, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3LlZ0N6AYA
    thats pretty neat, ive seen these before. unfortunately we had some bad experience with poly pipe, leaking. for peace of mind gal pipe is more durable.

    i,m installing a water main into the paddock , at a later time it could serve as a supply for a second house. fortunately i was given a ridge pipe threader years back, so 1" gal pipe , i think will do.

    so a small 3" trench will do.

  12. #12
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    May 2011
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    Murray Bridge S Aust.
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    If it's only the one job that you're planning to do, it might be cheaper to hire one for the day, considering the work involved, time and money on bits that may or maynot work. Hiring one will also give you the opportunity to have a real close look at one, find anything that you may or maynot like about it, if you really need one. If you're in rocky ground, I doubt the auger type of unit will be very effective. Sometimes they can be picked up on Gumtree etc.
    Found a chain type trencher, $2365
    https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/tott...vy-duty/123254

    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  13. #13
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    Apr 2012
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    I'm a bit of a Luddite myself but I prefer the poly pipe, cheaper, doesn't clog with rust and mineral deposits, less chance of
    it splitting when it freezes and I am pretty sure that it lasts longer. I put in quite a bit of it and never had any problems.
    I had a cranville wombat to dig the trenches but if I had known about moles I would have made one as I had a little D4.
    The smallest pipe I used was 1 1/4" for shorter runs, up to 100 mtrs from a pump, longer runs than that 2"

  14. #14
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    You will not get much water through 1" pipe over any distance.
    Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.

  15. #15
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    Canberra
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    If the soil isn't too rocky, I'd be inclined to use a ripper with a pipe-laying attachment, something like this:
    https://hayesproducts.com.au/product...per-50mm-pipe/

    It's cheap, very fast to install and you don't need to backfill.

    1" gal pipe seems kind of small for anything but short-run domestic use. I'd be inclined to use something like 32mm or larger poly - if you're worried about robustness, you can use metric poly and select a higher PN rating, which will give a thicker wall.

    While I've had problems with old (~30-40 year) rural poly failing, that stuff wasn't made to the same standard as the pipe you get now. I've laid kilometres of poly, metric and rural from 1" to 75mm, some of it with a ripper pipe layer, some of it trenched, and haven't had a single problem with pipe failure.

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