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  1. #1
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    Default Milling machine vice

    As some of you may remember, a while back I sought advice regarding the choice between a Bridgeport clone and a universal mill. Well I have voted with my wallet and purchased a good used King Rich KR-V3000 turret mill - DRO, ISO40 taper, 5HP, power feed on X and powered rapid on the knee. It comes with a 90 degree adaptor, arbor and arbor support.
    Well a mill is no use without tooling and a vice and the vendor offered me a used HYLO 160mm vice on a swivel base for $385 - the only negative was that someone had a bit of a go at drill in the vice. Well when I saw a photo of the vice I realised that was a bit of an understatement!
    20200506_083209.jpg
    You can also see where the jaws have been damaged by a face mill or such.

    20200506_083444.jpg
    I declined the offer of the vice as I was not convinced that it would retain any degree of accuracy in that state, that repairs would be extensive and it was overpriced given that I could buy a brand new Vertex VA-6 Anglock swivel vice for $480 posted to my door. Hopefully I made the right choice.
    I would like input from more knowledgeable and experienced members as to whether I made the correct choice in declining the HYLO vice, any general comments relating to Vertex equipment, particularly their vices and also any suggestions for alternative vices that would suit my purposes. Doubtless, a hydraulic vice would be the holy grail, but also a princely sum.
    On another related subject, I have pondered the merit of a D Bit grinder (universal cutter grinder) such as this Hare and Forbes one https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/G1975
    On the face of it, they seem to offer good capabilities, although the price has certainly shot up lately - not that long ago they were under $1200. Has anyone got any experience with them that they'd like to share? Is the Vertex version better quality as I have been offered one second hand for $1500 which seems steep unless they are a lot better. I don't mind investing the coin if the machine will do a decent job, but I don't want a toy that I will regret buying either.
    Let me know your thoughts if you will.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
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    York, North Yorkshire UK
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    Default

    Hi Karl,

    From looking at the pictures of the vise, I would suggest that you made the right choice. While rotary base vises look good theoretically giving you the capability to rotate a workpiece as needed. They tend to be far less rigid than a fixed tool room vise, they also tend not to remain true to the machine bed as they are rotated, which is why you often see that the rotating base has been removed and the vise fastened down directly to the bed. I have one similar and I could never get the base true.

    A Kurt vise would be the holy grail of vises !

    The grinder you pointed to is a Chinese clone of a Deckel TCG. You will still need tooling to be able to grind all the things that you may want.

    HTH.
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

  3. #3
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    Feb 2020
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    Melbourne
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BaronJ View Post
    The grinder you pointed to is a Chinese clone of a Deckel TCG. You will still need tooling to be able to grind all the things that you may want.
    HTH.
    That copy grinder has caught my eye on a couple of occasions and quality second-hand originals seem to be like hen's teeth.
    The H&F unit appears to come with:
    • Aligning finger
    • End mill grinding attachment
    • Drill bit grinding attachment
    • Lathe tool grinding attachment
    • End mill grinding attachment

    I'm not experienced with these things so, if I'm not spoiling the OP's thread, what other tooling do you think would be needed, to support basic milling and turning operations?
    Thanks for your help.

  4. #4
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    The Hare and Forbes model comes with all you need to grind end mills and slot drills, drill bits to 16mm I believe, HSS tools and single flute cutters. Perhaps a few extra 5C collets may be needed, but I thought it was equipped with all required tooling. Happy to be corrected though.
    Earlier comments regarding the rotary base are duly noted and reconsideration of my options is in progress.

  5. #5
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    Jul 2007
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    Perth
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    Karl,
    Re the D bit grinder they are very good for doing engraving cutters, D bits and small size cutters, but they are not a tool and cuter grinder, work envelope and wheel size become limiting factors. Stefan Gotteswinter has a good video on using one, link below. Vertex items usually are better fit and finish compared to mainland products, but the price difference ??
    Eccentric Engineering has the Acute sharpening system, while I have not used such the concept appears very good and at least one forum member here in Perth is building one. It also supports an Aussie company. Alan.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qHchpQeuho

  6. #6
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    Nov 2017
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    Have you actually bought one of the Vertex vices Karl?

    I picked up one of these from Magpro last week: Precision Milling Machine Vice 6" with swing base_Machine Tool Access._M&G Productions
    I can't see it on their current website other than the statement that "provides better clamping pressure" but pretty sure they are an angle lock style mechanism. Mine is still on the bench if you need me to investigate that a bit further...
    I've had the 4" model for a couple of years and been happy with it. Just needed a bigger vice for my new TOS mill
    Castings are good and solid but the OCD sufferers among us might want to fettle them a bit more.
    Jaws are definitely hard (file won't touch them) but you do need to do a bit of deburring/edge breaking particularly on the edge of the ground faces. I can cope with that when only paying $130 for a reasonable 6" vice. Handle is a slightly sloppy fit on the hex drive of the screw, but doesn't cause any issue in operation and is probably easier to locate than a closer fit.

    I won't bother using the swivel base - it just consumes Z space and adds weight.

    They also have this CNC style nodular iron vice in 6": High Quality 6" Precision CNC Machine Vice,nodular cast iron_Machine Tool Access._M&G Productions
    Looked nice in the flesh but since I've been happy with the other style I decided to save the ~$100 and just get the normal style.

    I've heard Magpro shipping isn't cheap, but they are local to my work so I've never had to freight anything so no personal experience there.
    If you were interested in one of the vices (or other tooling) and need a hand with pickup/freight just PM me to discuss.

    Steve

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Robbers View Post
    I declined the offer of the vice as I was not convinced that it would retain any degree of accuracy in that state, that repairs would be extensive and it was overpriced given that I could buy a brand new Vertex VA-6 Anglock swivel vice for $480 posted to my door. Hopefully I made the right choice.
    IMO, you did. I'd have taken that vice for a max of $100 to use as a (very) rough work vice. As a piece of precision machinery suitable for a milling machine, no way.

    And that knowing what a tool desert Tasmania is.

    No idea about the grinders, I've got a Tos T&C grinder that was dirt cheap because it needed *extensive* work. Which has now been done - finally.

    PDW

  8. #8
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    Thanks to all who have commented so far.
    I really did feel that the seller had quite a hide trying to pass that vice off for almost $400 - a minor foo foo I could handle, but that vice has been beaten up.
    I will look at the vice from M&G, at those prices, an 8" may be on the cards. To be honest, it probably isn't a bad idea to start basic and keep an eye out for my "dream vice" as time progresses.
    A second hand T&C grinder may not be out of the question at some point either. I must admit that the D Bit grinders have lost their shine a bit since their 25% price hike. There is a Vertex D Bit grinder for sale second hand, but I struggle to see the $1500+GST asking price in it.
    In the meantime I shall concentrate on building up a stock of slot drills and end mills along with all the other pricey bits that go with the addiction.

  9. #9
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    As a relative newbie to the world of a decent size mill - here's my experience with cutters...
    I've had a bunch of Chinese HSS endmills/slot-drills that I bought a while back. Been slowly working through them and turning them into blunt things... Doesn't take much.

    I picked up some HSS roughing endmills and a couple of carbide 4-flute from M&G when I bought that vice last week. I've used both types now and very happy with them so far.
    Unfortunately I don't have anything else to compare them to so they may just be average compared to other brands, but they both pee all over the cheapies.

    The 16mm rougher is quite happy to chew off a few mm in a pass and I can't detect any obvious sign of it degrading. Much more pleasant to use that a normal 4 flute endmill for that sort of work.
    The 10mm carbide endmill has been employed modifying the drive slots in some (CAT40 I think) arbours that came with the mill. They have one drive slot that isn't as deep as the other so won't fit in my ISO40 spindle as-is. They are Sandvik holders and pretty damn hard but the carbide endmill happily took about 3mm out of the bottom of the slots in a couple of passes. I used a bit of cutting oil and compressed air for chip clearance. They are still VERY sharp...

    Apologies if I sound like a M&G salesman. No relationship other than being a satisfied customer, and for me its a convenient place to buy reasonable quality locally at what I think is a good price.

    Regardless of where you get them, I'd recommend at least a couple of roughers and carbide endmills. Highly recommend a quality facemill around the 60mm size with octagonal inserts (ie lots of cutting edges per insert). Mine is a 63mm Stellram, from memory 5 or 6 inserts and a lovely tool to use. Run at the recommended feed/speeds it just rips through like butter.
    The 4 insert cheapie shoulder mills from ebay etc are a reasonable way of truing up rough/dirty stock that kills endmills, but after using the roughing endmills I much prefer using those for removing a decent amount of stock.

    Steve

  10. #10
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    I was considering a set of end mills and slot drills but thought better of it as apart from allegedly being HSS, they said nothing more and I have seen Chinesium HSS drill bits that couldn't stand up to mild steel. I think I will buy better quality HSS tools in sizes useful to me as well as a few carbide for tough work. The machine comes with three carbide insert face mills of varying size so I'm fairly well set there.
    I had a quick look at the M&G site and will look more closely tonight. It has me interested as their prices seem good and freight for a 56Kg vice was under $60.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Robbers View Post
    I was considering a set of end mills and slot drills but thought better of it as apart from allegedly being HSS, they said nothing more and I have seen Chinesium HSS drill bits that couldn't stand up to mild steel. I think I will buy better quality HSS tools in sizes useful to me as well as a few carbide for tough work. The machine comes with three carbide insert face mills of varying size so I'm fairly well set there.
    I had a quick look at the M&G site and will look more closely tonight. It has me interested as their prices seem good and freight for a 56Kg vice was under $60.
    That's a great freight price - almost TOO good.
    M&G's website sucks. I'd suggest getting hold of them directly to confirm total freight etc rather than ordering based purely on the website.
    FWIW I've been happy with their cutting tools so far.

    I know what you mean about Chinesium drills. I once used a 6mm masonry drill bit that was in the case with a cheap 240v hammer drill I bought for half a dozen holes as I didn't have one and it was cheaper than hiring.
    Damn drill bit was only marginally stronger than a cooked noodle, and as soon as I put any pressure on it it just folded in half like a fencing staple. First thing I did when I got off the ladder was to toss all the mongrel bits in the bin.
    The corded hammer drill itself has lasted about 20yrs so far. Built like a DongFeng truck and moving it around makes a great substitute for gym work
    I've also had a cheap HSS drill bit set from Totaltools - their inhouse brand. Exactly the opposite of the soft noodle, they are brittle as hell and I've had 10 and 12mm bits break/shatter when breaking through holes. Nasty stuff.

    Steve

  12. #12
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    Anybody buying from M&G or MagPro: get in touch with the owner Felix Mu. By phone or WeChat.
    He is very approachable and friendly.
    Their postage is simply Australia Post costs.
    But Felix will adjust tool prices if you ask. Particularly if you mention this forum as your source of hearing about his company.
    I have not found any crappy tools in his shop (I visit his shop in Melbourne whenever I go to Melbourne).
    Felix is an engineer and knows what's good and what's crap and his factory in China buys the tools unfinished and finishes them under his direction to the standard he dictates.
    His factory does CNC milling but mostly precision grinding.
    Cheers
    Joe

    Cheers
    Joe
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  13. #13
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    Just adding that Felix is back in Australia and was at the warehouse when I went there last week. As Joe says - a thoroughly nice guy. He’s quite passionate about his products and definitely not just another reseller buying crap in bulk and flogging it on.

    Steve

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhovel View Post
    Their postage is simply Australia Post costs.
    Its not, but that's been discussed here at length recently so I wont go into it, and he was anything but friendly when I queried it with him.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by racingtadpole View Post
    Its not, but that's been discussed here at length recently so I wont go into it, and he was anything but friendly when I queried it with him.
    Agree about the postage costs. I wanted a couple D1-3 backplates, postage doubled over the cost for one. As I have stuff lying about, I checked the weight & cost with my local post mistress. His postage costs were way high.

    I'm finally getting around to making my own from scratch which I wouldn't bother doing if his postage costs weren't so over the top.

    PDW

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