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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Gosford
    Age
    61
    Posts
    8

    Default Lithgow Small Arms Milling Machine

    Hi All.
    Thanks for adding me

    I have an old multi purpose type milling machine from the Lithgow Small Arms factory. It is basically a horizontal machine with a couple of vertical heads, one gear driven, and a slotter/ shaper attachment.
    I am trying to find out about the tapers in the vertical heads. The tapers look like an R8 but smaller to me. The larger is 27mm at the big end and 20.8mm on the cylindrical part the taper length is about 10mm. The smaller one has a big end of 20.8mm and a cylindrical part 17.4mm again with a taper length of about 10mm. I have no tooling that fits in either.
    Anyone know how I could identify these tapers?

    I have attached some pictures of the milling machine.

    Regards and thanks

    Andrew
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    332

    Default

    Hi Andrew,
    Based on the photos the machine appears like a Deckel FP1 but more probably the British copy, Alexander. Look at the Lathes UK web site and a lot of info there. The collet size is maybe W20. Good luck with it. Alan.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    69

    Default

    Well the machine looks a lot like a Deckel or a variant of the type.
    it is common for the early mills like that one to have a Morse 4 spindle taper and then they had the option to use deckel specific collets as used on their grinders. These are threaded s20 and flare out like an r8.
    https://www.ebay.de/itm/Zugspannzang...qKiSDMivKewO7g
    Always good to see more pics of the machine and the kit that you have with it

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    505

    Default

    Andrew,
    Welcome to the forum.

    As others pointed out, your mill is almost certainly an Alexander Master Toolmaker or Deckel FP1. The plate on the side of the head (visible in photos) may tell you who made it, but if not there may be some ID on the other side of the head.

    Assuming your mill is one of those two, the photo looking into the spindle shows a collet adapter inside a Morse taper.
    If it has been in place for a long time the taper adapter can be very difficult to extract, even if it has an extraction nut on it (looks like it has).

    I have some Deckel collets and if you like can send you one for a trial fit.

    Remarkably the following Deckel-fit collet popped up on a saved ebay search today:
    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Deckel-F...sAAOSwbcBd2JAy
    which is a direct fit into the 4MT taper; the listing includes a photo of the buttress thread typical of Deckel collets which I expect these also fit an Alexander, though not all parts are interchangeable on these machines.

    Cheers,
    Bill
    Last edited by WCD; 8th Apr 2020 at 01:29 AM. Reason: improvements

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Gosford
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    Posts
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    Default

    Thanks for your help. I am pretty sure it is an 'Alexander master toolmaker' now that I have found photos of that. I have even managed to find a pdf manual so that should help heaps. I'll get out this afternoon to see if I can remove the adaptor and find the 4 Morse taper.
    I'll post some picture when I get further into it
    Thanks again

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    melbourne, laverton
    Posts
    1,910

    Default

    well done buddy . look like a deckel. I ve got one very similar. Its a sweet machine. If you google deckel collet
    are you sure that is not a collet adapter. in the vertical head. More than likely if it is a collet adaptor the verical tapper
    will match the horazontal.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Rockhampton, QLD
    Age
    68
    Posts
    454

    Default

    Welcome to the forum Andrew.

    Ross

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Southern Flinders Ranges
    Posts
    1,536

    Default

    I spent ages (several years in fact) looking for one of those or a Hercus before I eventually admitted defeat and bought Chinese. I have mill envy.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Gosford
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    Default

    Ok I think I am really getting somewhere now thanks to the help of you here and at practical machinist forum.
    I am sure my machine is a Alexander tool maker. Many of the small details are the same it doesn't seem to have the logo in any casting which i would have thought it would if it was simply re-plated for the Ministry Of Munitions. Anyway, I got the 4 MT to S20 (i think) out of the vertical head as shown in the photos. 4MT-s20.jpg4MT -s20a.jpg
    The high speed head is a little different as it has a recess to take a 16mm collet (from what I can make out) cut straight into the quill. I found a post where someone else had bought a straight shank collet holder set, and found a collet to hold the shank. This might work if I can find the a collet the right size. S20 seems to be possible to get but does anyone know what the 16mm one would be called? is it an S16?

    So my next question is, what do I do for tooling, just for general useful stuff, like maybe a few end mills etc. Now that I have a 4MT? Do I just buy a cheap 4MT ER32 collet chuck? or am I better to get a sleeve to make it into an R8, 3MT, 2MT or something there is lots of cheap tooling for?
    Lots of options now I think?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    332

    Default

    To try and answer some of the points: yes the 16mm C collets are hard to find in Oz, Franz Singer in Germany probably has some at a cost as well as MT4 ones. Apex Machinery in Melbourne did have some Alexander 16mm collets some years ago, don't know about now though.
    As for alternate mt4 collets it would be suggested that mt4 to ER would be a good option bearing in mind that Z clearance (daylight) may become an issue on larger milling objects. The vertical and horizontal drawbars are captive and eject the collet on loosening, therefore adapters need a collar to withdraw them as you see on your system. Another option I have done is to convert a standard MT4 collet with a metric thread by making an adapter to convert that to the Deckel draw bar (photo). The accuracy of the imported MT4 collets I got leaves a bit to be desired though.
    Of course you could make a captive drawbar to go straight into a metric threaded MT4 collet and if you have nothing now its probably a good option. An experienced FP1 forum member may be able to shed some more suggestions. Welcome to the deep dives looking for elusive parts.

    20190423_100614.jpg

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    505

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewp100 View Post
    The high speed head is a little different as it has a recess to take a 16mm collet (from what I can make out) cut straight into the quill.
    Wow, you have the high speed head as well?! They are uncommon.
    Re the 16mm collets, this may be of interest: https://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/U2_COLLETS.html they are advertised as fitting Alexander and Deckel machines.
    RDG also have an ebay store.

    RC Machines (https://www.rcm-machines.com/en/) is also worth a look, but being in Luxembourg prices for delivery to Aus at the moment are steep, but if you type Deckel into the search box on the RC home page there is a lot of useful small stuff including (from memory) buttress thread adapters etc which are generally more affordable (if less perfect) than those from Franz Singer.

    Cheers,
    Bill

  12. #12
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    Dec 2011
    Location
    Sydney
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    Default

    Andrew,

    It may be worth mentioning that the Z slideway is lubricated by what look like grease nipples, however they are in fact oiling points.
    Do not use grease because it will clog the internal oilways/galleries and ensure that lubricant cannot get where it is needed.
    If someone else has been there before with a grease gun the only way to fix it is to remove the vertical slide, pull it to bits completely
    and clean out all the galleries and drip regulators etc and replace the oil wicks.

    Don't ask!

    Bill

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Gosford
    Age
    61
    Posts
    8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WCD View Post
    Andrew,

    It may be worth mentioning that the Z slideway is lubricated by what look like grease nipples, however they are in fact oiling points.
    Do not use grease because it will clog the internal oilways/galleries and ensure that lubricant cannot get where it is needed.
    If someone else has been there before with a grease gun the only way to fix it is to remove the vertical slide, pull it to bits completely
    and clean out all the galleries and drip regulators etc and replace the oil wicks.

    Don't ask!

    Bill
    Thats good to know before I do something silly.

    Thanks
    Andrew

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Gosford
    Age
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    8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WCD View Post
    Wow, you have the high speed head as well?! They are uncommon.
    Re the 16mm collets, this may be of interest: https://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/U2_COLLETS.html they are advertised as fitting Alexander and Deckel machines.
    RDG also have an ebay store.

    RC Machines (https://www.rcm-machines.com/en/) is also worth a look, but being in Luxembourg prices for delivery to Aus at the moment are steep, but if you type Deckel into the search box on the RC home page there is a lot of useful small stuff including (from memory) buttress thread adapters etc which are generally more affordable (if less perfect) than those from Franz Singer.

    Cheers,
    Bill
    Thanks. I had a look at those U2. They may fit the larger vertical head.
    I'm still getting myself a bit confused about S20 W-20, U2, etc. I'm learning a lot over these past few days but it would be nice if there was a list for all the different taper configurations.

    The smaller one in the high speed head will be the more difficult to get and I am thinking of trying to get a collet for say a 12mm to fit it and then adding a cheap ER16 collet chuck on a 12mm straight shaft.
    Just using it for hobby work, I am probable best to try to make it fit relatively cheap tooling.

    Andrew

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    332

    Default

    Attached photos are of the 16mm collet for the high speed head, I see Franz Singer calls these S-** so my earlier reference to W-16 is probably incorrect, don't know why. Anyway have cobbled up what I think you are trying to achieve, the largest S-16 collet I have is 3/8 so I suspect these top out at 10mm, an ER 16 collet holder off ebay and turn down the shank shaft to fit whatever the largest size collet you can get. From my experience the ER shanks are case hardened only, once under that its ok. ER-16 collets will take up to 10mm.
    Where to get an S-16 collet ?? if I recall the later HS heads took S-20 collets to align them with the Deckel SO grinder and the FP1 adapter.
    Another option would be to try and make an insert that fits into the HS head (S-16) and graft an ER-16 collet head on the end.

    First photo has an S-20 beside for comparison

    IMG_0272.jpg IMG_0274.jpg IMG_0275.jpg

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