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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
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    ACT, Australia
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    8

    Question Opinions on MachineryHouse mill and lathe for relatively new hobbist metalworker

    Hi all, first time poster here, so sorry if this has been covered to death before. I've found a few threads, that were worth the read.

    I am looking to get a few "big" pieces for my workshop, including a lathe and a mill. I haven't used either since school, 20 odd years ago.

    I would like to get something bigger than I need now, such that I don't have to replace it in a few years, however, the budget isn't unlimited.

    I don't have the knowledge/skills to identify what is a good/bad second hand buy, or how to fix/restore a second hand purchase (although, it is something I'd love to do in the long run!)

    I am not overly concerned about to the micrometer accuracy and surface finish *at this stage*.

    I will be working 60% aluminium, 40% steel, but at this stage, mostly smaller parts. As a hobbyist, I'm not concerned about pumping out parts at production quantity/quality.

    MachineryHouse / Hafco are about to have a sale, and I've been eyeing off a HM-48 (https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/m126d) and an OptiTurn TU3008g lathe (https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/K0012).

    A lot of what I have read suggests the HM-48 is a RF45 clone, and has a lot of issues. I haven't found a great deal about the OptiTurn lathes, other than they're of reasoable quality for Chinese machines due to having some german engineers overseeing operations.

    In this price range (3-5k for each machine), is there anything I would be better off considering?
    Am I just buying a terrible machine?
    I hear a lot of bad things about MachineryHouse, especially to do with their after-sales support, however, I am also aware that people who have bad experiences post about it a lot more than people who have good experiences.

    I am several hours away from the nearest MachineryHouse, but planning on making the drive this weekend (for their 90th anniversary sale), if I don't receive very strong feedback against those tools

    I would love to hear from people who own either of the above machines, or knowledgable people as to why they would choose to go / not go with those machines!

    Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Murray Bridge S Aust.
    Age
    71
    Posts
    5,945

    Default

    You don't say where abouts in Australia you are!!!
    We have a metalmaster folder that leaks oil constantly, this is a brand new machine by the way, ring for service tech to come and fix, we'll call you back is the reply!!! This has been ongoing for several months, to be honest, I wouldn't get my worst enemy to buy something from them.
    If you did buy from them, you'll have to pay return freight to them for warranty etc.
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    York, North Yorkshire UK
    Posts
    6,444

    Default

    Hi Andrew,

    Welcome to the forums.

    Realistically what ever machine you buy, you will have to learn how to set it up and adjust it so that it behaves as intended ! Faulty product apart. There is always good and bad products, the old days when you bought a mill or lathe it came with a good pedigree from the word go. This is why you will get people saying go for old iron ! I don't disagree, but it often becomes a refurbishment project. Raising the question, do you want to make stuff or refurbish stuff.

    HTH.
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Laidley, SE Qld
    Posts
    1,038

    Default

    IME the Hafpos sales don't have huge discounts on the big ticket items, if you miss the sale it won't be the end of the world. The small items such as tool holders can be a lot cheaper but then they are way overpriced to start with.

    None of the Australian suppliers of lathes and mills, from the biggest to the smallest, has a clue as to the quality of their next batch of import lathes and mills, they simply do not know how good and/or dodgy they will be. But they all look very presentable and persuasive sitting on their showroom floors. Assurances that they inspect and check every lathe and mill are worthless, the problems aren't going to show up until you get the lathe or mill home and have a few hours on it.

    There is a chance of buying a dog (10%, 5%, 1% ?) who knows. I have no great love for Hafpos, but at least they have the financial strength to be able to exchange a crook lathe or mill should it be necessary, the smaller guys not so much. Again, this is not an endorsement of Hafpos, but as a risk management strategy if I was in the market for another new lathe or mill that is where I would buy.

    Hafpos after sales service for me (mainly electrical) on a lathe and mill was OK, but that's going back 10 years or so now.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    ACT, Australia
    Posts
    8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KBs PensNmore View Post
    You don't say where abouts in Australia you are!!!
    [...] to be honest, I would get my worst enemy to buy something from them.
    I am in our glorious capital, Canberra. I've heard that their after sales support is hit and miss. Disappointing. Do you have any recommendations other than MachineryHouse, that are located in Sydney / closer to Canberra?

    Quote Originally Posted by BaronJ View Post
    Hi Andrew,

    Welcome to the forums.

    Realistically what ever machine you buy, you will have to learn how to set it up and adjust it so that it behaves as intended ! Faulty product apart. There is always good and bad products, the old days when you bought a mill or lathe it came with a good pedigree from the word go. This is why you will get people saying go for old iron ! I don't disagree, but it often becomes a refurbishment project. Raising the question, do you want to make stuff or refurbish stuff.

    HTH.
    I don't have the knowledge/equipment/contacts to restore/refurbish a machine, which is why I'd rather buy new. I get that there will be a learning curve, and happy with that, on the assumption that it's not a "needs to be rebuilt on day one", which is what I'm trying to avoid

    Quote Originally Posted by bob ward View Post
    IME the Hafpos sales don't have huge discounts on the big ticket items, if you miss the sale it won't be the end of the world. The small items such as tool holders can be a lot cheaper but then they are way overpriced to start with.

    None of the Australian suppliers of lathes and mills, from the biggest to the smallest, has a clue as to the quality of their next batch of import lathes and mills, they simply do not know how good and/or dodgy they will be. But they all look very presentable and persuasive sitting on their showroom floors. Assurances that they inspect and check every lathe and mill are worthless, the problems aren't going to show up until you get the lathe or mill home and have a few hours on it.

    There is a chance of buying a dog (10%, 5%, 1% ?) who knows. I have no great love for Hafpos, but at least they have the financial strength to be able to exchange a crook lathe or mill should it be necessary, the smaller guys not so much. Again, this is not an endorsement of Hafpos, but as a risk management strategy if I was in the market for another new lathe or mill that is where I would buy.

    Hafpos after sales service for me (mainly electrical) on a lathe and mill was OK, but that's going back 10 years or so now.
    I guess I am more worried about the fundamentals of the machines. There are some things that aren't too hard to fix/upgrade (electrics), and some things that are well beyond my ability (grinding surfaces flat, scraping dovetail surfaces, etc), and there are things I'd rather not have issues with, but if they did come up, I guess I could work around them (not the best gears, etc).

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Mackay North Qld
    Posts
    6,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewMP View Post
    Hi all, first time poster here

    I am looking to get a few "big" pieces for my workshop, including a lathe and a mill.
    I don't have the knowledge/skills to identify what is a good/bad second hand buy, or how to fix/restore a second hand purchase (although, it is something I'd love to do in the long run!)

    I am not overly concerned about to the micrometer accuracy and surface finish *at this stage*.

    I will be working 60% aluminium, 40% steel, but at this stage, mostly smaller parts. As a hobbyist, I'm not concerned about pumping out parts at production quantity/quality.

    A lot of what I have read suggests the HM-48 is a RF45 clone, and has a lot of issues. I haven't found a great deal about the OptiTurn lathes, other than they're of reasoable quality for Chinese machines due to having some german engineers overseeing operations.

    In this price range (3-5k for each machine), is there anything I would be better off considering?
    Am I just buying a terrible machine?
    I hear a lot of bad things about MachineryHouse, especially to do with their after-sales support, however, I am also aware that people who have bad experiences post about it a lot more than people who have good experiences.



    I would love to hear from people who own either of the above machines, or knowledgable people as to why they would choose to go / not go with those machines!

    Thanks in advance!
    Hi AndrewMP,

    Welcome to our MetalWorking Forum.
    My suggestion is not to worry about Hafco too much,as the guys have said there are not much savings to be made.
    The thing is to really take your time and look further afield, there is no urgency, is there?

    Start looking at the local vendors and possibly take someone with you who knows his stuff re machinery. Not so much to buy but at least for making later, good against better and best comparisons.- maybe a Canberra local member can help you here?

    Take a notebook and write down specs,sizes, features, capacities ,speeds, horsepower, prices and accessories -ie as many details as you can get ,so you can latter make your comparisons against similar machines from the other vendors. Take your phone and take pics.
    With Pics and details the guys here can advise you.

    If no assistance is available,learn as much as you can learn online here right here. The lads here are pretty awesome at helping the new blokes. Ask questions and lots of them.

    Work out the size of lathe and mill you need. Then think of the basic tooling for each machine.The eventual vendor's location factors in here as well because the further away they are ,the more it costs in freight to you.

    Once you settle upon a machine size and specs you can google and make your self a spreadsheet list.

    Think about it, where would you like to have your machinery vendor located.nearby or far away if warranty is a concern and a return of a heavy machine at your cost is required.?Ask this particular question of a vendor-,who pays for warranty return. My experience with Hafco has been me paying the return.

    Google says these guys are near you.

    https://moderntools.com.au/product-list/

    As a new member you will need to look around our forum.
    GOTO the FORUM box towards the LH top corner of the page. Click the down arrow and a pull down menu appears. Select Forum Home on the top line and click.A scroll down page shall appear and our Terms of Use ( our rules) are there to read (please)

    The rest comprises of the sub forums and help pages.

    Welcome to our Forum

    Grahame

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Alexandra Vic
    Age
    69
    Posts
    654

    Default

    One fairly common thing that seems to recur with a lot of Asian sourced lathes etc is that people frequently comment about draining all the oil from the gearboxes, thoroughly, clean them with solvents etc, and refill with the specified oil. Apparently the suppliers are rather prone to shipping them with excess casting sand adhering to the insides of castings that separates and drops into the oil on the ship to AU. Appears to be a fairly common occurrence across most asian brands, and I don't have any large HAFCO gear so I cannot comment from personal experience, so I am not pointing the finger at them alone, but members here regularly comment that they do a clean and oilchange pretty well straight off, or replace worn bearings in a few years and discover grit inside the castings when they do.

    Other comments are about paint quality usually being poor, and the amount of filler found in castings. Paints are generally pasty and brittle and prone to absorbing coolant and lube oil, then discolouring and ultimately washing off if you are at all rigorous about keeping your machinery clean. Also quite prone to chipping, particularly around areas that have filler in them.

    While I understand that value for money may be an important consideration for you, beware of trying to hard to save by buying at the bottom end of the Asian machinery market. Local suppliers with a decent reputation will have some form of knowledgeable representation working with the manufacturers to ensure quality control, and a fair proportion of components will be rejected on QC grounds. Other importers/distributors without the representation on site will buy shipments of similar looking machines without the QC, and there customers can discover issues with tolerances etc over time. Also, local suppliers can bargain with manufacturers for cheaper goods, and the manufacturers will meet their price points, by means of reducing the materials, skilled labour, or tolerances of the products they ship. Thus it not unknown for seemingly very similar machines from different local suppliers to have price differences of 10-15%, but for the cheaper machine to have lighter, less rigid beds, looser tolerance, a little more backlash in the feeds etc.

    A final word of warning is to ensure that the suppliers that you are dealing with have a decent understanding of the role and function of the machines they sell. Might not be a real issue in the range you are looking to, but ebay is riddled with drop shippers who know nothing about machinery, but are happy to take an online order and your money, then pass the order and some of the money on to a wholesaler whose interest is bring in and flogging off container loads of gear, frequently without any pretense of offering product support, parts etc to their retailers or the customer. Machines often never operate to their potential, and can't be fixed due to poor parts support etc, and the retailers generally couldn't care less once you have left feedback for the purchase when the box arrives, as you have fairly limed recourse against them after that.

    I have some personal HAFCO gear in portable stuff that has served it's purpose, and have worked with some of their industrial stuff in the past. Industrial stuff has generally performed well and earned it's keep, but can be a bit of a disaster cosmetically due to the paint issues. I tend to be a bit shy of their lathe tooling because they don't have a range of carbides to work with different materials and the tool holders and inserts frequently are not industry standard sizes and shapes, so you get locked into buying their inserts, which may not be optimum for the work you are trying to do.Haven't had issues with their portable gear, but have limited amounts of it and don't work it hard.
    I used to be an engineer, I'm not an engineer any more, but on the really good days I can remember when I was.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    76

    Default

    It sounds like you are in the same situation I was a few years ago. I ended up buying an HM-48 and an AL960B lathe. I’ve been very satisfied with the lathe, but not so much the milling machine. It was quite poorly made – something I discovered when converting it to CNC – and doesn’t really have the accuracy or rigidity I find I need, even after bolting the column to a concrete wall. However having said that, and given that I had no experience with that type of machinery, I still think it wasn’t a bad choice to start with. At least I would now feel confident about buying a larger second hand machine, and I have had a fair bit of use from it.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    ACT, Australia
    Posts
    8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grahame Collins View Post
    ... trimmed quote...
    there is no urgency, is there?
    maybe a Canberra local member can help you here?

    Work out the size of lathe and mill you need.
    Once you settle upon a machine size and specs you can google and make your self a spreadsheet list.

    Think about it, where would you like to have your machinery vendor located.nearby or far away if warranty is a concern and a return of a heavy machine at your cost is required.?Ask this particular question of a vendor-,who pays for warranty return. My experience with Hafco has been me paying the return.

    https://moderntools.com.au/product-list/

    Welcome to our Forum

    Grahame
    Hi Grahame,
    Thanks for your warm welcome! I will definitely be checking out the forums in more detail and absorbing as much info as I can!

    Getting in touch with some Canberra members is a good suggestion. I will check out the forums to see if there is an ACT sub-forum.

    I am concerned about analysis paralysis, and spending too much time and effort trying to understand my needs, which, to be honest, I don't know, and won't know until I start learning the machines again. Thus, I would like to buy "bigger than I think I will need" to start. I have a reasonable amount of space in the shed, although I'm limited to single phase. I would be better to spend the extra hours working to afford a bigger machine than sinking too many hours into research. Yes, that sounds naieve when I type it.....

    Modern Tools is in Melbourne, which is about an 8 hr drive. Any toolshops in Sydney would be much closer, being just over 3 hours up the road.

    Thanks,
    Andrew

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    ACT, Australia
    Posts
    8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by malb View Post
    One fairly common thing that seems to recur with a lot of Asian sourced lathes etc is that people frequently comment about draining all the oil from the gearboxes, thoroughly, clean them with solvents etc, and refill with the specified oil. Apparently the suppliers are rather prone to shipping them with excess casting sand adhering to the insides of castings that separates and drops into the oil on the ship to AU. Appears to be a fairly common occurrence across most asian brands, and I don't have any large HAFCO gear so I cannot comment from personal experience, so I am not pointing the finger at them alone, but members here regularly comment that they do a clean and oilchange pretty well straight off, or replace worn bearings in a few years and discover grit inside the castings when they do.

    Other comments are about paint quality usually being poor, and the amount of filler found in castings. Paints are generally pasty and brittle and prone to absorbing coolant and lube oil, then discolouring and ultimately washing off if you are at all rigorous about keeping your machinery clean. Also quite prone to chipping, particularly around areas that have filler in them.

    While I understand that value for money may be an important consideration for you, beware of trying to hard to save by buying at the bottom end of the Asian machinery market. Local suppliers with a decent reputation will have some form of knowledgeable representation working with the manufacturers to ensure quality control, and a fair proportion of components will be rejected on QC grounds. Other importers/distributors without the representation on site will buy shipments of similar looking machines without the QC, and there customers can discover issues with tolerances etc over time. Also, local suppliers can bargain with manufacturers for cheaper goods, and the manufacturers will meet their price points, by means of reducing the materials, skilled labour, or tolerances of the products they ship. Thus it not unknown for seemingly very similar machines from different local suppliers to have price differences of 10-15%, but for the cheaper machine to have lighter, less rigid beds, looser tolerance, a little more backlash in the feeds etc.

    A final word of warning is to ensure that the suppliers that you are dealing with have a decent understanding of the role and function of the machines they sell. Might not be a real issue in the range you are looking to, but ebay is riddled with drop shippers who know nothing about machinery, but are happy to take an online order and your money, then pass the order and some of the money on to a wholesaler whose interest is bring in and flogging off container loads of gear, frequently without any pretense of offering product support, parts etc to their retailers or the customer. Machines often never operate to their potential, and can't be fixed due to poor parts support etc, and the retailers generally couldn't care less once you have left feedback for the purchase when the box arrives, as you have fairly limed recourse against them after that.

    I have some personal HAFCO gear in portable stuff that has served it's purpose, and have worked with some of their industrial stuff in the past. Industrial stuff has generally performed well and earned it's keep, but can be a bit of a disaster cosmetically due to the paint issues. I tend to be a bit shy of their lathe tooling because they don't have a range of carbides to work with different materials and the tool holders and inserts frequently are not industry standard sizes and shapes, so you get locked into buying their inserts, which may not be optimum for the work you are trying to do.Haven't had issues with their portable gear, but have limited amounts of it and don't work it hard.
    Hi malb,

    thanks for the great reply. I agree with you about buying from a seller that actually understands what they're selling!

    The sand in the castings is a bit concerning- it's not something I have read before. If i am to get a chinese machine (actually, any machine), it's definitely something I will check straight away!

    I would hope that a company like MachineryHouse is big enough that their suppliers don't try and undermine them too much, and does some level of QC on the machinery they import. I have seen a few shops selling the exact same gear (not sure if they're part of the MachineryHouse brand, or if Hafco is just the brand they're all reselling?).

    I am not *too* fussed about cosmetics, assuming that it is purely cosmetic. Nothing that can't be touched up over time, if it gets too bad.

    Lots of food for thought in your post though. Thanks for taking the time to reply

    Regards,
    Andrew

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Tamworth, NSW
    Posts
    202

    Default

    Welcome to the forum Andrew. I have been looking for a mill and lathe seriously for about a year. I think I was in a very similar situation to you but no terms of budget, location (5 hrs from Sydney) and unsure of my ultimate needs in terms of the machine. I almost went with a Chinese mill from either H&F, red fox or sieg but I resisted waiting for something of a higher quality. Whilst it is tough and I hear every one of your points I just didn’t think I would be happy with a small Chinese mill. If you think you will be then go for it but I knew I wanted something a bit different and at least in my Mind of a higher quality. There are some very good second hand deals around if you hunt them out. I’d suggest setting up alerts on gumtree and eBay- you can set up multiple search terms and location boundaries. You will likely get emails every day and most of them not what you want but there will be quite a few that make you think....

    If you are the kind of person that is happy to get something that will more than likely do the job even if it does feel a bit sub quality but allows you to start making stuff then great. On the other hand if you like to feel that you are enjoying a good old machine with high quality and a bit of soul then I’d suggest don’t blow your money on Chinese gear. I enjoy my hobbies so much more when I use quality gear so for me that was important. Also I learnt a lot more about what it was I was looking for in terms of size and features that I’ve ended up with something that wasn’t at all on my radar - time will tell if it was the right call but I know I am going to enjoy the ride.

    Think hard about the projects you like to do and if feel of the machine is important to you. I also wouldn’t buy a big machine just because someday you may have one job that needs it - there will always be someone who can help out even if you have to pay for them to do it. My take is buy a size that suits the bulk of what you want to do not the extremes of what you might do.


    Also second hand gear often comes with a lot of tooling or accessories which can be worth as much or more than the cost of a new mill!

    Good luck!

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    near Warragul, Victoria
    Posts
    3,718

    Default Hi welcome

    It's not easy , we have all been in your situation. After much self learning and misadventures , I would be inclined to go for a used Hercus 260 or similar lathe. I mostly use a ex tech school Sheraton 9 with the roller bearing spindle , its ideal for stuffing around with .

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Berowra Waters
    Posts
    149

    Default Hafco gear is fine.

    My old man has been going to Hare and Forbes for machinery and gear for over 50 years. Me about 30. I wouldn’t be able to calculate how much we’ve spent there over that time, it would be a scary amount though. In all those transactions, I can only remember a couple of minor things that were required to be fixed, nothing major at all. The quality is almost the same wherever you buy it from, but with H&F, you’re basically paying a bit more for peace of mind when you do have an issue it will be resolved.
    I have scored some absolute steals there buying ex-demo machines from the shop floor (my panel saw and drum sander were two) You just have to play the deal game.
    Remember that whichever machine you buy, you can almost allow the same amount again for tooling. The other poster who said that the tooling at H&F is not the best is most likely correct, but there are plenty of tool suppliers out there who have online stores, Graham McDonald services at Seven Hills is a good one.
    Hafco gear is fine for what it costs, I have had good experience with it .

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
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    The local H&F agent is M&G industrial in Fyshwick. Mark is the boss there. I bought my AL-346 there during an H&F sale - in that case they just did the sale price on the machine and the tooling - I did pay a chunk extra for them to deliver the machine on their tilt-tray and install it in my shed. Later I bought an Optimum MH-28V mill - for that I went in and spoke to Mark and said I was tossing up between this machine and a unit from Redfox in Vic. He did a good price on the machine and base, better than the average H&F sale discount. They have the benefit of checking the machine over and running it up before handing it over, and do have very good after-sales support.

    As for machines, I'm more than happy with my lathe, the mill I need to spend more time on - a bigger machine would have been nice, but I was limited by available space.

  15. #15
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    Jan 2020
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
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    It sounds like you are in the same situation I was a few years ago. I ended up buying an HM-48 and an AL960B lathe. I’ve been very satisfied with the lathe (made in Taiwan), but not so much the milling machine (made in China). It was quite poorly made – something I discovered when converting it to CNC – and it doesn’t really have the accuracy or rigidity I would like. However having said that, and given the cost and the fact that I had little experience with that type of machinery prior, I still think it wasn’t a bad choice to start with. At least I would now feel confident about buying a larger second hand mill, and I have had a fair bit of use from it.

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