Thread: Some advice please - lathes

Hello all

My first post in the metal work forums I think.

Anyways, onto my dilemna, which I think I have made up my mind about, but would like some confirmation.

As I approach old age, really only ever having done woodwork, I thought I might like to get into some metal work. Initially maybe just turning up some chess pieces, or pens, or salt and pepper shakers, knurled nuts, threaded knobs, perhaps as I advance make some small engines - just small hobbyist type things.

Now, I have never really done any metal work other than welding bits together to make lattice arches and things like that, so all I know about lathes is what I have googled and watched on youtube.

I was pretty intent on getting a Sieg C3 14" (as I don't have a lot of money to outlay and need to reserve some for tooling), but a gentleman recently contacted me and asked if I was interested in a Hercus. I was pretty excited about that opportunity.

But after some further questioning I found it was a Hercus 9 from 1963. So now I am less excited because I don't think I know enough to assess the machine properly, and being older than me it has no power feeds and is probably not metric. Not to mention I don't have three phase and so would have to replace the motor with a decent HP single phase motor. I'm assuming it will be quite a job to move it as well? (How heavy are those things exactly)

Assuming a similar spend on both, I am still thinking I would be better off with the shiny new machine that should pretty much work out of the box, given the sort of projects I have in mind.

Thoughts? (Please don't start a holy war on this.)

Originally Posted by Wongdai

But after some further questioning I found it was a Hercus 9 from 1963. So now I am less excited because I don't think I know enough to assess the machine properly, and being older than me it has no power feeds and is probably not metric.

Mine is 1965 model and it has power feeds. I have had mine for 9 years and I have not found it being non-metric, to be restrictive.

Not to mention I don't have three phase and so would have to replace the motor with a decent HP single phase motor. I'm assuming it will be quite a job to move it as well? (How heavy are those things exactly)

Being heavy is a really good thing for any lathe in fact the heavier the better.
Having a 3Phase motor is a bonus because then a VFD can be employed to get variable speed (some work required).
I moved my Hercus into my shed by myself including a 50 odd metre distance from my front drive, down the narrow footpath along side my house and across the back lawn to my shed. I broke it down into half a dozen separate pieces, motor, motor mount and pulley assembly, Tailstock, apron, bed and bench, and carried each piece in either a wheelbarrow or sack trolley.
A strip down and clean up would be desirable anyway.

While all this sounds like PITA it will help to get to know the machine which is essential to get the best out of it.

However before you rush out and purchase it there are a few things you should look at.

• The state/wear in the bed is probably one of the most significant - can you post a few pics showing close ups of the bed near the chuck
• What sorts of extras and tooling does it come with?
• How does it run? - firstly try it without the power feeds engaged, does it clunk and clatter or does it run nice and smooth, the what about with the power feeds?
• Look for wear on all the gears, especially the back gear - are all the teeth present?
• What are the state of the chucks and chuck jaws - clean or badly dinged with bolts missing

Hopefully some other members will come up with some suggestions.

Metal lathes are a lot of fun and of course some frustration. I could play around on mine all day.

I see you are in Perth and although I am far what might be called an expert turner, am willing to help, eg go and look at the old lathe, and especially with fitting a VFD - PM me if you are interested.
FWIW I am ATM in the middle of doing a motor conversion for a friends Hercus so it can run on a VFD.

All these new lathes in your price range and even higher may require a little bit of input by yourself to get the working to there maximum potential, I say this as others will probably say the same, that being said they should perform okay as arrived.

The Hercus will not be Metric if that is what you are particularly after.

The fact that you say it has no power feeds indicates that it is a Model C and will require a set of change gears to obtain longitudinal feed and screw cutting ability through the half nuts.

Based on what you have said the lathe you are considering should be an acceptable choice and should be suitable to your requirements and present ability, the fact that it is new, suits your power requirements are all pluses.

Sorry, I assumed it to not have power feeds! It may very well have.

(I've not viewed the lathe as yet.)

Hi Wongdai, Guys,

JMTPW,

Old iron is great ! But you do need to have the expertise to make the best of it. Buying new doesn't necessarily mean that you can just unbox it and use it. There will be a fair amount of setting up and adjusting to do, but that would equally apply to old iron.

hi
where abouts in perth are you
steve

I have Hercus 9inch, it is fine for what I do with it.
Yes it is older than me but you can still buy new parts for it.
I have been using it for 5 years and did not have a clue when I started, now I am more capable but far from good.
Most metals it flies through but I cut some 4140 with carbide tooling with it on xmas holidays. I just took smaller cuts, anything heavy it would labour.
For me with the weight and size of a Hercus and realistically doing hobby stuff the Hercus fits my needs.

You are all making me think I should at least go and take a look at the Hercus. Hmmm, maybe I could get him to send me some pictures.

For those that enquired, I live in the Swan Valley but the Hercus is in Subiaco.

I doubt that it comes with tooling as the gentleman said he will be replacing it with a mill/lathe combo, as he doesn't have the space for both a mill and a lathe.

Stay tuned...

Originally Posted by Wongdai

You are all making me think I should at least go and take a look at the Hercus. Hmmm, maybe I could get him to send me some pictures.
For those that enquired, I live in the Swan Valley but the Hercus is in Subiaco.

Some pics would be good.

I doubt that it comes with tooling as the gentleman said he will be replacing it with a mill/lathe combo, as he doesn't have the space for both a mill and a lathe.

The availability of tooling is likely to depend on the compatibility between the Hercus and new machine. If they don't match he is more likely to off load the old tooling. Chances are the tooling for the tool post will be old school anyway as new (and now cheaper) tooling eg Quick Change tool posts have not been around that long.

Hi mate . I own an old hercus C modal i really like it. It cost me$400 .Its got plane head stock bearings and no quick change gear box . X axis does have power feed but not the cross slide. I wish i had a ball bearing head stock hercus A modal with quick change gear box.
If you can get your hands on one of them. well you would have a supa little machine.
aaron

I'd offer some observations...

1. Don't assume the Sieg will be a switch-on-and-run because it's new. It will require quite a bit of work to be a good lathe. There are some folks who will jump up and defend them, but I speak from experience (I have Sieg's top model mill - SX4 Pro - and I can assure you it's not a quality product. I also have a mini-lathe - not Sieg - and the Sieg quality is as bad as the Real Bull mini-lathe). Now, fixing the mini-lathe can be a hobby in itself, but it won't be great off the bat. It will be OK for plastic, brass and aluminium but it will need a lot of tweaking for steel, and you will soon find it's many limitations.

2. For any new lathe, remember to put aside at least as much as you spent on the lathe for tooling. The Hercus may be a good deal if it comes with tooling. The mini-lathe will need you to cough up at least $200 worth of cheap Chinese tooling just to do anything, and then you'll throw most of it away as you realise its' limitations.

3. I bet if you ask you will find some local machinery enthusiast who would be willing to help you look at the lathe and move it. I'm sure you have a skill that can repay that person in kind. And I guarantee that you will learn a lot more from someone else than you expected.

I like new machines myself, but the Hercus will almost always be a much more satisfying and useful machine than that mini-lathe unless it been abused. I have a brand-new Lathe (an H&F AL960B) and personally prefer making thing to fixing machines.

Don't let the imperial measurements bother you. As you get into machining you'll learn that a number is a number. My new lathe is imperial and it's no big deal. The sum of the issues? You leave the leadscrew engaged while you are threading metric threads. You'll need to do that on the mini-lathe anyway unless you buy a threading dial, and they are dodgy at best.

The worst things about the mini-lathe:

1. The plastic threading gears will drive you batty. You have to hammer them on the shafts, the fits are so bad, and remember that these also control your feeds. You will need to change gears every time to change to a finishing cut (or leave the machine set up for finishing and take a lot of time to do anything). Also, the minimum feed is much too fast: it needs a slower gear than it is capable of.

2. You will spend a lot of time adjusting everything.

3. You will never achieve the accuracy you will eventually want. The Hercus might be a bit worn but (again, unless it's been abused) the inaccuracy from wear will be no worse than the mini-lathe can achieve from the get-go.

Sadly, those mini-lathes are tempting for the price, but it really is a case of "you get what you pay for". If you really decide to get one, you might as well get one from E-Bay and save $250. I promise, the Sieg is not any better. They are all hit & miss.

Funnily enough, nobody ever wants to buy a used mini-lathe, but if the owner has spent the time to get it working right it's a better buy than a new one. An unusual case where used can be better than new.

Edit: If you really need a small lathe, Hare & Forbes sell a little Optimum 7 x 12 that is about 60% more than the Sieg, but is much better out of the box. I have a mate with one who uses it for model work, and it came well adjusted, with a lot of the things you'd end up buying for the Sieg (metal change gears that fit properly, a carriage lock, a properly made tailstock that is at the right height and has a proper cross-adjustment, a chuck that has a chance of being accurate, hardened ways, etc). Still have to buy tooling, and forget the stand: if you can weld, knock one up from angle and a 1/2" steel plate (or thicker) for the top and that will deal with the inevitable stiffness issues that a small lathe will always have.

Phil.