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Thread: Moore & Wright

  1. #1
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    Default Moore & Wright

    A little depressed. I saw a set of Moore & Wright telescoping gauges on sale at a reputable tool retailer (who I won't name as this is nothing to do with them). I thought the price was too good to be true. Well, it was. Sigh.

    Opened them and they were stiff and raspy, with two settings: loose or locked like East Germany. I gave them a little tool oil and exercised them well and they aren't much better.

    Looked carefully at the box and no "made in" anywhere on them. But looking carefully there is that sneaky CE mark, so they're made in China. And they're garbage.

    For those who aren't aware there is a "CE" mark that was devised by the EU to indicate conformance with European standards. The Chinese have in recent years been marking all of their stuff with a mark that looks almost identical, that they call "China Export" (I think it is more honest and stands for Chinese Excrement). Anyway, I was shocked to see a Moore and Wright tool carrying this mark that is effectively illegal in the EU. If you don't know about this mark, read https://www.ybw.com/vhf-marine-radio...port-mark-4607 or any of many other similar sites.

    Anyway, M&W goes on the garbage list. What a shame. I have an old M&W micrometer (my only imperial mic) that is a delight, and I know it's about 30 years old.

    Phil.

  2. #2
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    Default

    I've seen similar stuff that at first glance it looks the real deal, only upon closer inspection that a letter has been added or deleted. The biggest problem is that sometimes when looking on evil pay etc. that the seller is unaware it's a forgery or that you can't inspect it.
    As the old adage goes, "If it's to good to be true, then it probably is" or something like it!!!
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  3. #3
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    Default

    Hi SP_Flip,
    It is a sad fact of modern life that this happens. There just so many instances of once well known and regarded manufacturers shooting their product in the foot by listening to their accountants.

    I collect and repair traditional pocket knives as a hobby. Most will be aware of the brands Schrade ,Old timer and Uncle Henry. They ceased USA production in 2004.

    Since that time pre 2004 USA made Schrade folding knives still sell for more than the equivalent current China made Schrade ,Old timer and Uncle Henry models.

    A week or two back I paid $35 for a pre 2006 second hand but good condition Schrade pocket knife knife when the equivalent China made model is $29.50. The China models are only marked made in China on the box, not the knife tang.

    When any once well regarded brand item shows up as being exceptionally cheap, it pays to check why it it so cheap.

    It is not to say that all Chinese made products are poorly made. I have some Chinese calipers by Insize. For what I do they are great,well made,silky smooth easy to read and come with QA cert and a etched serial no. on the rear of the frame.

    Price ,quality and country of origin are indicators in my purchasing now.

    Grahame

  4. #4
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    Default

    Yep, the Chinese can make good stuff, but they make some nasty stuff too. Insize are good, and I have their catalogue bookmarked (if only someone would carry a wide range of their product or if you could buy it out of Asia - it's hard to buy). And they don't put that that dodgy CE mark on their stuff.

    Not being racist either - my wife is Chinese (via Vietnam). I love everything I've got made by Vertex, and that's a Chinese company, from a democratic law abiding country called Taiwan. And I know some is made in China by the Vertex factory, but they oversee the manufacture and QA and it's spot on - and I mean spot on.

    I sometimes wonder where all the junk comes from in China - how do you make a perfectly nicely ground ER collet with a quarter millimetre runout? Are they rejects, or what? How much more can it possibly cost to make that nicely ground collet accurate or that morse taper adaptor concentric? Surely they are all being made in CNC machines. Is someone just collecting faulty runs and selling them on Ebay? Is it a communist plot to flood the west with poor engineering equipment and conquer us because our guns can't shoot straight any more (in case it's not obvious, I was being facetious there).

    I have some Chinese telescoping gauges and these are about the same as the M&Ws without the neat plastic box. These are the M&W real deal, not a knockoff, I'm certain (I do have a "Mihohogyu" indicator that, funnily enough, came in an orange stripy box ). My moan is that M&W have gone down the SH, it seems. I wasn't expecting gold plated, but I thought I was getting a deal (and I was fooled: but (new) M&W is now a "never buy again" for me - fool me once, etc). Understand, my issue isn't that these are made in China, it's that they're garbage made in China and M&W puts their name on them.

    You even have to be careful with Starrett. They have a Made in China and a Made in USA line, and you have to know what's what. There is a big difference in quality. They call the Chinese ones the "Global Series".

    https://www.starrett.com/metrology/p...-detail/120A-6
    https://www.starrett.com/metrology/p...-detail/1202-6

    Phil.

  5. #5
    elanjacobs is online now Apprentice gear maker and machine doctor
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    Quote Originally Posted by SP_Flip View Post
    I love everything I've got made by Vertex, and that's a Chinese company, from a democratic law abiding country called Taiwan.
    Be careful calling stuff from Taiwan 'Chinese', I suspect they might get rather upset with you...

    Definitely +1 for Vertex, SYIC is another excellent one for mill tool holders and collets

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by SP_Flip View Post

    I sometimes wonder where all the junk comes from in China - how do you make a perfectly nicely ground ER collet with a quarter millimetre runout? Are they rejects, or what? How much more can it possibly cost to make that nicely ground collet accurate or that morse taper adaptor concentric?
    How do they manage to do such a terrible standard of work.

    Easy really. They drag in the poor sods from the rural areas and force them to work with little or no training for long hours and poor pay. If you were forced to work under the sweat shop conditions some of their workers endure, you wouldn't give a rats if the work quality was good or bad either. The forced workers have no one to stand up for them and its their only way of retaliation.

    It is the fact that these bosses aren't accountable to anyone. Who do you report them to,the communist party? It is a Chinese culture thing where its expected that everyone cheats the system when and where they can.

    Look at a lot of the crappy stuff that comes out of that country. It does not have a brand name and now often there is no COO. Another thing I found instructive was to google the brand name name.The guys who are trying to get better and are fair dinkum often have a website. Those that do often have pictures of the factory and workers which can tell you a lot.The better the website ,usually the better the product is.

    A good insite into how the Chinese think and the culture that gives rise to this infliction of shoddy goods on customers who have little comeback, is to be found in a book

    Made Poorly in China an Insiders account of the China production game.The author Paul Midler has spent 20 years in Asia,ten of them in China trying to assist manufacturers who wanted to export.

    He outlines the deceit and dishonesty of some Chinese manufacturers.If you don't buy the book at least Google the reviews and precis of it.


    No it is not China bashing by by any means but goes a long towards answering why some of their products are like what they are.

    In a way, it is our own fault by chasing the cheapest price which is reflected on the shonky products we often are tricked into buying.

    Grahame

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by elanjacobs View Post
    Be careful calling stuff from Taiwan 'Chinese', I suspect they might get rather upset with you...

    Definitely +1 for Vertex, SYIC is another excellent one for mill tool holders and collets
    I've been to Taiwan several times on business (not machinery related) and have contacts there still. I assure you they won't be offended by being called Chinese, quite the opposite. Politics aren't appropriate here so I won't go into details. I doubt anyone is interested further but if you are, PM me and we can have that chat offline.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grahame Collins View Post
    How do they manage to do such a terrible standard of work.

    Easy really. They drag in the poor sods from the rural areas and force them to work with little or no training for long hours and poor pay. If you were forced to work under the sweat shop conditions some of their workers endure, you wouldn't give a rats if the work quality was good or bad either. The forced workers have no one to stand up for them and its their only way of retaliation.
    Separate reply as I want to keep away from the political stuff. My interest is purely from the manufacturing and machining aspect.

    I've been to China many times and still deal with the Chinese IT industry on a daily basis. A CNC machined and ground collet doesn't need a sweatshop - it's a CNC machine. An untrained agricultural worker might be loading and unloading it (probably not), but he'd certainly not be programming the thing. It must be just as easy to make it close to accurate as inaccurate. OK, for a drill I could buy a farm worker on a worn out 1953 drill grinder, but not a collet.

    That's why I wonder if we're buying rejects from quality manufacturers, where (say) the stock pallet was badly loaded and all the collets failed QA. Instead of tossing them (or they do toss them and someone diverts them), they're sold to Jack Huang who puts them on the market, and they turn up on ebay a local seller's website for us to buy. Pure speculation, but I'd love to know. I've more than once thought about going there and posing as a bulk buyer to see for myself. Very dangerous thing to do in China, though, that's how you get arrested for spying via the owner's brother-in-law in the police.

  9. #9
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    Default Two classes

    My experience has been that there are three classes or cultures in China.
    * The first is the old State-run factory, where they don't have much/any QC and will only sell to you in container lots. AliBaba is full of them. Needless to say, my experience with them has not been good.
    * The second class are the backyard operators, who may or may not be getting stuff out the back door of a factory. Very unreliable.
    * The third class are the new private enterprise factories. I was chatting to someone who did know the engineering world there, and his version of it was as follows. Decide on market, raise finance. Buy German or Swiss CNC machinery for the factory. Hire German or Swiss factory manager and give him full authority. Buy European materials as well: German, Swiss, Swedish, etc.

    I have dealt with class 3 for tooling, and been very happy. Even had custom cutters made for me - to spec. (Also used Taiwanese brands - usually OK too.)

    Cheers
    Roger

  10. #10
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    Some Moore & Wright products are definitely not as good as they used to be.
    I have posted these picture here before to show how they got this simple gauge horribly wrong.

    M&W.jpgM&W4.jpgM&W 2.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Techo1 View Post
    Some Moore & Wright products are definitely not as good as they used to be.
    I have posted these picture here before to show how they got this simple gauge horribly wrong.
    I love the way they didn't have a "degrees" symbol, so just used a % symbol instead.

    I spoke with the vendor yesterday, he said they mark on their website whether the M&W products are made in England with a UK flag on their website. Something to watch out for.

    Probably if the packet doesn't specifically say made in England, assume it isn't. Having said that, I have no idea if the UK made stuff is any better. If they let this junk go out with their name on it, why would they do any better in a UK factory?

    Phil

  12. #12
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    Default Old & new

    Which may be why I am still using some 20 - 40 yr old UK/USA metrology gear. It seems to hold its calibration. My two 'old' Mitutoyo mics (Japanese) are also good.

    On the other hand, I did buy two Chinese micrometers a few years ago - 25-50 mm and 50-75 mm, and they seem to check out very well. The boxes included reference bars which seem very consistent.

    Two cultures ...

    Cheers
    Roger

  13. #13
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    OK - so how do you tell if they are actually genuine M&W and not just a counterfeit?

    Steve

  14. #14
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    Picking out the counterfeits is getting harder and harder, I got stung a few years ago, I did some investigation and discovered that the practice is unlawful in China and huge penalties apply
    only problem is it is up to the affected party to chase them up and take them to court it ends up costing a million $ or more so many companies just can't justify the cost.

  15. #15
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    OK - so how do you tell if they are actually genuine M&W and not just a counterfeit?
    Well, if I got them some 40 years ago, and they were possibly 20 years older than that, I think we could safely assume they were genuine.

    Modern stuff? Like the M&W stuff quoted earlier? Oh, probably genuine - but genuine rubbish.

    I have a few 'good' suppliers in China whom I trust (mostly). Some of the others ... proved otherwise.

    Cheers
    Roger

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