Thread: Are Bridgeports and their clones worth the coin?

I thought I had the acquisition of a DoAll clone of a Bridgeport in the bag, however I have hit a speed bump in the form of a new chairperson of the board who is ex Government and very process driven, (stuff the logic and final outcome, let's have multiple meetings and complicate everything to the detriment of everyone).
Anyway, I got to looking around and for similar coin to what Bridgeports and their clones go for, I can buy a Universal mill with more power, more metal and more rigidity, albeit at the expense of no quill feed, (with one exception, except it's nearly $3K more than machines without), less spindle speed (1600-2000rpm versus 3600-4000 rpm). I also typically pick up 3 axis powered feed with the universals, where most of the Bridgies and clones vary between no power feed to 2 axis only. A 3 Axis DRO is only $550. I have shed space and 3 phase power, so industrial machines are no issue.
If you were doing a lot of threading work, I could see the quill feed being a bonus, but for general milling and boring work, I am really wondering if I may not be better off with the Universal machines.
What say the brains trust?
What are the thoughts on Russian made machine tools as there is one that has caught my eye and comes with three or four horizontal arbors? I figure that to keep tooling costs down, an adaptor to NT 30 will be a good idea as most of these machines are NT40.
I get the impression that the drive train and spindle on a Bridgeport is not the strongest construction (3/4 max drill capacity and no more than 3/8 drilling using power feed) and that their tables tend to droop on the wider versions.
I may want to make a vice for my cold saw one day, bore cheek plates for excavator attachments another (not the whole attachment, just during construction), bbut I also don't want to loose too much at the lighter end of the scale, say cutting a 3mm keyway.
Would a 415 Volt 3 phase VFD be a viable method to increase the speed range on these machines? If 50Hz gives 1800 RPM, then 3000+ shouldn't be out of the question.
If I am mistaken in any are, then please let me know, I am truly open to ideas and opinions.

A few thoughts to put into the mix

• The main flaw with the Bridgeport machines is the attachment of the head to the column boom. That is where the rigidity goes missing because of the tilt and nod adjustments. Another downfall is the use of a R8 taper. While that may not matter for light tool and die stuff (where Bridgeport style machine do well), for heavy work they are not so great.
• 40 tapers are quite common secondhand, so I would not bother with going to 30's. If you found a machine that took 30's then don't reject it but no need to convert.
• The quill comes into it's own when you need to drill small holes. My mill has not got one so anything under say 5mm is a fraught exercise, as feed is by cranking or power feeding the knee. Fortunately, I rarely need that.
• Using a VFD for large speed alterations is something to be wary of - I have a seal on mine that is fine for most speeds but use it on the top two and grease/ oil comes flowing out like it is not there. These higher speeds are really only good for small cutters and drills anyway (the same ones that are easy to snap if you have not got that quill feed...) 2000rpm is the recommended speed for a 4.5mm HSS drill or cutter, so there is precious little advantage that a higher speed will give you if you are not drilling really small holes in Al or plastic. I would be more concerned that you have enough low speed for the bigger jobs.
• To do the keyway you will need a slotting head. However, if the keyways are only occasional, buy a S/H keyway broach set and use a press.

Michael

For what you are planning to do i think you would be better off with a universal mill. I have found that bridgeport type mills are good for drilling holes and fine toolmaking type work but struggle for rigidity when taking heavy cuts.
I have always found Russian machines to be well built and wouldn't hesitate to buy one.
Don't bother with a 30-40 adapter its not worth the loss of rigidity.

I would still get a Bridgeport clone.

Those big cheap milling machines you see for sale are usually very limited in what they can do.

They might have a vertical head but it is that big it is only good for basic milling work and they run too slow anyway.

I have looked at engineering shop website where they list their capabilities and usually it goes along the lines of

x lathe
x lathe
x lathe

Turret mill

x horizontal borer
x horizontal borer
x horizontal borer

So we have one vote for a Clone and one for a Universal mill.
I realise that the R8 collet is a weak point, so have restricted my search to machines clones that have 30 tapers, (which the DoAll machine does).
From what I know so far, I don't think that 2000 RPM max speed will hurt me too much, but I can see how the far bulkier vertical head could prove an issue with accessing tighter spots. If I'm not mistaken, 2000RPM should run a 12mm carbide or 4.5mm HSS end mill at correct speed for steel and the bottom speed of 40RPM should handle a 65mm HSS cutter in hard material. I can see your point about speed though RC as I found several machines that were only 1100RPM tops. I would also imagine that the Universal mill would kill a Bridgeport for gear cutting or face milling operations.
There must be a reason that Bridgeport clones bring such good dollars (visibility on Youtube and perceived as not being too large and scary, much like 28 fergie tractors?).
I did notice that the Russian machine's vertical head only swivels in one direction unlike some of the other Universals on offer, although I'm not sure how much of an issue that may pose.
I really am drawn to the robust nature of a universal mill, however I cannot afford two mills so I need to find the best overall compromise. I also know that when I bought my Chinese 12X36 lathe many years ago, it didn't take me long to start pushing the boundaries as it were. Internal keyways aren't an issue as I already own a 25" Shaper.
Repair of Russian machines is one concern that I have. Yes, they are built like the Kremlin no doubt, but I wonder how easy it will be to source electrical switchgear and the like.
I am still half keen on the original DOAll that started all this off as it is a semi known machine and looks to be in good condition apart from being way out of adjustment, subject to questional lubrication frequency and having several of the oilers broken off due to sitting idle and used as a storage bench for some time however the silly games squad is being awkward and gotten me looking at other options, plus there seems to be an undercurrent on several forums suggesting that Bridgeports may be a bit fragile in the head area, particularly once the backgear is engaged. I also note that one of the youtube channels mentions that he offloaded his Bridgeport and now has a Schaublin universal mill and has not shed one tear for the Bridgeport.
If I made model engines or such, I could see the Bridgeport being the option hands down.

2000rpm is miles fast enough.

One other thing to consider is throat depth. That is the distance under the cutter. Sometimes or most of the times the machines with vertical head attachments can be very limited. Not forgetting it has a turret and an extendable ram. So you can place the head in lots of different positions on the table.

like windmill axle 006.jpg

Another plus for the bridgeport style is you can get riser blocks to get more throat. I know I am sounding a bit like a fanatic but I found if you only have one machine, their advantages outweigh their limitations. Not to mention massive spare part availability.

I've had a Victoria universal mill for a few years. I've recently put in an enormous amount of work to mount a Bridgeport J-head on it and the difference between using the J-head and the previous arrangement with the vertical attachment is like night and day. The top speed of the vertical attachment on the Victoria U2 was about 1400RPM from memory, but the machine really did not like spinning up the heavy gear train in top gear. The lack of clearance under the attachment was a problem with nearly every job I did on it. The fact that the attachment spindle is offset significantly to one side was often a problem too. I still use the knee for a lot of the vertical movement but that is probably mostly because I don't have a DRO on the quill. There has been one occasion thus far when I have been tempted to whip the J-head out of the way and use the old vertical attachment- and that was solely because I had the required tool in NT30 but not yet in R8. I think there is a good reason why universal mills can be had much cheaper than a BP.

Originally Posted by .RC.

2000rpm is miles fast enough.

One other thing to consider is throat depth. That is the distance under the cutter. Sometimes or most of the times the machines with vertical head attachments can be very limited. Not forgetting it has a turret and an extendable ram. So you can place the head in lots of different positions on the table.

like windmill axle 006.jpg

Another plus for the bridgeport style is you can get riser blocks to get more throat. I know I am sounding a bit like a fanatic but I found if you only have one machine, their advantages outweigh their limitations. Not to mention massive spare part availability.

I can definitely see your train of thought regarding potentially limited clearance when using the vertical attachment on a universal mill, which is obviously something that I need to assess on any potential machine. I can see also the versatility of the Bridgeport style, they are somewhat the contortionist of mills aren't they.
Does the Bridgeport spares availability transfer to the clones as well? My understanding was that the DoAll (Taiwanese made, not Spanish) did not share part with the Bridgeport, although that did come from an American source.
Seeing as you have one, can you tell me just what a Bridgeport or clone can do as far as end mill and face mill size that can be effectively and reliably run? Is the 2 HP, drivetrain weakness or rigidity the limiting factor?
I really appreciate the input and it would be really good if some universal mill owners chimed in as well. Hello, are any of you you out there?

I have a universal mill. My main complaint with it is lack of quill. Not a big deal but annoying in it's absence - bit like having a car that has intermittent wipers but not variable intermittent ones. Occasionally you think it would be nice if the wipers are a bit faster or slower but not enough to want to change the car (a reoccurring 'complaint' of a former boss of mine who is very much in my thoughts at the moment).

If I had the space and found a reasonable one I would consider getting a turret mill for a second mill as that ability to do contortions can be handy. Having said that, I've never not been able to to things on my current mill even if I need to think harder sometimes. Without knowing in detail what you plan to use it for, I think that a universal would be a slightly better machine for you as they are more robust. However, the Doall machine you started on with ISO40 tooling would probably perform just as well most of the time and would be a little more flexible (I would avoid R8 tooling though).

Michael

I agree with Michael.

I have an Italian universal. Tempremental The feeds went out in one direction. I am guessing either a broken wire or limit switch. I worked around that but then all the feeds quit. Motor still turns so I am thinking that one of the repaired gears has stripped some teeth. Hand cranking probably 1000kg of vertical is character building

Also the straight cut gears for the horizontal to vertical head can be quite noisy at higher speeds. Lower top speeds are limiting (1500-2000 rpm) but they are made for removing a lot of metal with larger tooling; not nibbling away at it.

Stoutness is king.

Ken

My bridgeport clone is a work in progress, still needs a bit of work but I loved it the first time I used it.

One of the first things I fixed was the quill auto downfeed and auto disengagement.

But hey, I went from a Chinese geared head mill to this!

One things for sure, for an industrial machine it's not as super duper rigid as I thought it would be. It's more than adequate for me but I can see the attraction to universal mill if you plan super heavy cuts/metal removal.

If you are like me and only do mostly light/moderate cuts then a bridgeport clone is the go.

Bridgeport parts mostly do not fit on my mill, they look similar but they are not compatible.

I have a Pacific mill, a re-badged Lagun (offered in US) made in Spain. Parts are still available from the original maker but you need to re-mortgage your home for parts! Some parts are available S/H on eBay etc.

Simon



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Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

Does the Bridgeport spares availability transfer to the clones as well? My understanding was that the DoAll (Taiwanese made, not Spanish) did not share part with the Bridgeport, although that did come from an American source.
Seeing as you have one, can you tell me just what a Bridgeport or clone can do as far as end mill and face mill size that can be effectively and reliably run? Is the 2 HP, drivetrain weakness or rigidity the limiting factor?
I really appreciate the input and it would be really good if some universal mill owners chimed in as well. Hello, are any of you you out there?

So long as the clones are genuine clones (most asian made copies) and not machines that just follow the general look of a bridgeport (like a lot of for example Italian made ones) then parts would be easily available. A step pulley is probably the simplest to get, add a VFD and you have all the advantages of the variable head, without the headaches.

As for milling capability. Everyone is right by saying they suffer from a lack of rigidity. I use a 63mm face mill and depth of cut is around 0.75mm with 45 degree octagonal inserts. Different insert geometries means more or less force required to cut.

End mill probably 10mm is a sweet spot for plain endmills.

However if you use rippa style end mills I have used 3/4" ones very very successfully.

Of course with end mills with the HSS ones they can not take a big depth of cut as they bow and bend anyway and snap. I do not use much carbide on the mill as the cutters are so exoensive compared to HSS. But for cutting say a 5mm feather keyway I will only take 0.5mm depth of cut, simply because any deeper and the cutter does not like it.

For boring work, I have found what the biggest issue can be is the cutting edge geometry. Even a 100 tonne mill is going to get rubbish results if the cutter geometry is not very good and for my boring it can be hard to get a good cutter geometry.

Even the great John Stevenson said getting excellent results from boring work can be difficult.

I know if I wanted a decent heavy duty mill, I would want something with a 300mm wide table 1700mm long. Then you have plenty of table room and clearances and lots of travels in the ways.

It all depends on what you want to so.

A vintage car / motorcycle restorer friend of mine said .... "you can have my bridgeport when I'm dead". Guess he liked it.

I would like to thank everyone who has taken the trouble to reply and offer their perspective.
Right about now, I am going to take a step back and do a lot more research which will include contacting the sellers of the machines on my short list and asking them to run a tape measure over the machines so I can get an accurate picture of what will fit under the vertical heads etc.
Being a boilermaker with a habit of playing with tractors, trucks, dozers and machinery, I am thinking that the Universal may be my weapon of choice, although the turret mill does have it's attractions.
I am concerned that the Bridgeport does seem to be a bit weak in some areas, for example, I note that the instruction manuals for both the DoAll and the genuine Bridgeport stress the need to support the head when rotating past a certain point as the pinion gears will be damaged if relying upon them alone and the maximum 3/8" capacity when auto feeding the quill. The back gear seems to be a point of failure mentioned on several forums as well. I think I'd rather snap a drill bit or an end mill on a Universal Mill as opposed to damaging a pinion or gear on the Bridgeport.
One last question for the brains trust. I have so far searched Ebay and Machines4U, are there any other suggestions where I may find suitable machines? I think I may have a lead on a decommissioned mill locally, but I am unsure what condition it is in and if it has a vertical head and what speeds it has.
Naturally, a mill purchased on the mainland will require freight and inspection pre purchase, so those costs will need top be factored in as well.
Once more, thanks to all.

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