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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
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    Brisbane, Qld
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    Default Small lathes (and mill combos)

    Hi folks,

    Have expanded my woodworking shop so now have space for some metalworking gear. I've been half-considering a metal lathe for ages, but was very space limited, so it never made it to the top of the list.

    I think that unless I can find something second hand that is too good to resist, I'll end up picking up something like a Sieg SC4 or an AL-320G for $2.5-3K, and I've got a couple of questions:

    Any particular suggestions for the budget? Are the new machines worthwhile, or is a second hand machine the best option?

    Is this too much lathe for a raw beginner? I don't mind not using the full capabilities, but I don't want to buy something expensive if I'm going to ruin it!

    Are the mill add-ons to this type of thing worth having? I don't really plan on buying a separate mill, but given the cost is not extreme and they don't take much extra space, they might be worthwhile.

    Cheers,

    Danny

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Southern Highlands NSW
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    1,894

    Default

    Suggest get something used and cheap, not too big and with enough accessories to do something useful.
    Then spend some months learning how to use it. A good book to read is, "How to Ruin a Lathe". (just kidding)
    When you've had enough practice, buy something good.
    You will have a better chance of avoiding damage to a good lathe, and you'll get an idea of what would suit you best.

  3. #3
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Default

    Basic new lathes usually come with very little else except for the lathe so you'll need to allow a fair bit of your budget for tooling and accessories.

    The difference between a new and second hand lathe is that second hand stuff often comes with some tooling - sometimes A LOT of tooling.
    I'd avoid buying a lathe with a tooling packages - you can do much better $ wise on eBay and you can get exactly what you want.

    Things that I reckon are worth having are
    - a quick change tool post and multiple tool holders
    - a steady
    - a selection of centres
    - a tailstock chuck
    - carbide insert tooling sets and inserts
    - carbide boring bars
    - 4 jaw chuck
    Eventually
    - a set of collets and collet chucks

    Plus you will need some measurement gear, Micrometer, callipers, dial indicators with magnetic bases etc

    FWIW I've wasted a lot of time with milling attachments on a lathe and reckon they are pretty useless for all but the smallest jobs and even then they're not much chop. Eventually I gave up on mine and bought a small mill - 1000% better.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    australia
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    57

    Default

    If you have never used a metal working lathe before, then maybe it's time to sign up for a night school beginners course for machining.
    You will then find out just what machines you would like to acquire, either a lathe, a mill or a combo lathe/mill.
    While your learning what can maim, or even kill you if it's done wrong, ask the instructor and others about what they use, or would like to use.
    You'll at least get some decent answers from different persons, that actually know what they are talking about.
    A machining course at night school, is far cheaper and much more informative, than you rushing out and splashing cash on the wrong purchase.

    Just my lousy two cents worth.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    York, North Yorkshire UK
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    Default

    Hi Guys,

    I agree with signing up for a night school course, though I disagree with just using carbide tooling. Learning how to make and grind your own lathe tool bits is a valuable skill. I vary rarely use carbide ! An exception is threading, where using a threading insert saves a lot of time and effort getting tool tip angles right.

    As far as milling goes, yes you can do light milling on the lathe but its nowhere near as easy or straightforward as on a separate mill.

    JMTPW.
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Brisbane, Qld
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    33

    Default

    Thank you all - yeah, I am looking around for some training. There's not as many TAFEs as there used to be, sadly.

    Tooling coming with a second hand lathe is a good point. Sadly here in Qld there don't seem to be as many used metal lathes floating around in good nick as in other states... I guess I could always exercise some patience!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Ballarat
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    65
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    Default

    Hi Danny
    A couple of months ago I was asked by a mate and his dad to accompany them to H&F to advise them on buying a lathe each so I had a good chance to have a bit of a look over their range. I think the AL320G would be a great starter lathe for you. My mates dad had the Sieg and found it way too small very quickly. Both my mate and his dad haven't done any machining before.
    They both bought (from memory) the AL250G which is the smallest lathe that is anywhere near decent though still too small to my mind but it fit their budget.
    I recommended they buy a Quick Change Tool Post and extra holders which my mate did but his dad didn't and has regretted ever since (he is about to pull the trigger on one though).
    With regard to the mill add on, don't bother. They really aren't quite up to the job and as BobL says, buy a small mill.
    Having said that, I was always taught that you are only limited by your imagination and you can do just about anything on a lathe. It just depends on how creative you are.
    When I bought my lathe they threw in a small milling vice which I used for the first time just recently making a special tool holder for my quick change tool post (thread on this coming soon) and found it invaluable for machining the dovetail. Maybe that is something to look at in the interim until you can buy a small mill.
    Oh and as BaronJ says, start of with High Speed Steel tooling first more so to understand the geometry of cutting tools plus it's way cheaper

    Phil

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    melbourne australia
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    Default

    I don't recommend buying a "practice" lathe. It's such a PITA setting up a lathe and collecting the appropriate tooling I reckon you're better off buying the lathe you think you need long-term and taking your time to learn how to use it. A TAFE course would be great, but if there's no TAFE nearby YouTube is your friend. I bought a Hercus 260 and taught myself to use it by watching YouTube videos and reading the Hercus manual. Start watching the videos now, not when you've bought the lathe.

    This series of videos by MIT are where I started: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za0t2Rfjewg

    Everyone will have their number 1 lathe safety tip. Here's mine: ALWAYS check the chuck key is removed before starting the lathe. A good habit is to spin the chuck a full revolution to check for obstructions.

    Good luck!
    Chris

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    South Coast of New South Wales Australia
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    296

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mardtrp View Post
    If you have never used a metal working lathe before, then maybe it's time to sign up for a night school beginners course for machining.
    Australia is a big place, how many people have such an option up the road from them?
    Cheers Jim
    My Youtube Channel -
    Blue Heeler's Model & Toy Steam Engine Room

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Australia east coast
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaronJ View Post
    Hi Guys,

    I agree with signing up for a night school course, though I disagree with just using carbide tooling. Learning how to make and grind your own lathe tool bits is a valuable skill. I vary rarely use carbide ! An exception is threading, where using a threading insert saves a lot of time and effort getting tool tip angles right.

    As far as milling goes, yes you can do light milling on the lathe but its nowhere near as easy or straightforward as on a separate mill.

    JMTPW.
    You have a Myford, you don't have the rigidity or horsepower to take proper advantage of carbide tooling.

    Yes learning to grind HSS is a valuable skill, I make form cutters and the like from it. But the vast, vast bulk of my lathe work is done using CCMT tipped tooling, both turning and boring. The one exception to date has been threading, funnily enough, but I've finally bought some tipped tooling.

    I was in H&F yesterday - just for a quick look. One of the smallish lathes - it was around $3200 IIRC - didn't look bad at a quick look. D1-4 spindle, 3MT tailstock with a decent diameter quill, couple other features that looked like an improvement over past years offerings.

    Their tooling is overpriced as is their QCTP's etc. Far better just buying off of eBay.

    PDW

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    Vic
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    I started off with the small Myford ml7 with zero experience. I made a few tools for it. ie, toolpost holder, radius turning attachment, tailstock die holder, cutting thread etc. I killed a few cutting bits and learned how to grind hss along the way I had jammed the cutting bit and the stock a few times but lucky the lathe was small enough to stall and the belt slipped, I learned all that along the way, also cutting speed, feed rates. I then moved to slightly bigger Hercus260. The bigger spindle bore is a bonus so if you are looking, take this into account, my hercus limits at 25mm bore size so anything that is bigger than 25mm in diameter and sticking out for too long I will need to use fixed steady and it also makes it harder to put the centre hole in for long stock which doesn't fit through the bore.

    As for the mill I bought the FuRong round column a year after that Myford, I made a few things on it, including a 600mm pan-brake using the plan from this site. I killed quite a few end mills too. Starting with the mill then the toolings come as you need. I soon realised this mill limits on the table size and travel on the x-axis (ie. along the table), also the z travel is very clunky as I wasn't able to move the table up/down at all, I was only able to move the quill! Having said that I learned a lot from this mill. I then upgraded to the knee mill (bridgeport clone made by taiwanese).

    If I was to start again, I will start with the small lathe to learn then upgrade to something bigger, if you are looking to get a secondhand lathe then you could possible "recoup" when resell it but getting the new chinese then you will get a portion back just like the new car, if you are getting one to use and to keep for a lifetime then it doesn't matter, the AL960 from H&F is good if you are looking to buy and keep for a long time? As for the mill I will start with something big and something that I will keep as the toolings and spindle size will not be the same and you will have to buy everything again. The toolings can cost as much as the mill itself if not more where as the lathe you only need cutting bits. I won't go with the mill/lathe combo as that will limit on what you can do....ie use rotary table or dividing head on it.

  12. #12
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ferrous View Post
    Australia is a big place, how many people have such an option up the road from them?
    The OP said he was located in Brisbane so I'd say it was a relatively sensible suggestion.

    I'm finding all sorts of uses for carbides even on my small Hercus. Whether its ripping the scale off a piece of crappy steel (yes I know I should stump up for something better) or boring out a bit of Al I am really impressed with the cheap carbides available on ebay.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
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    South Coast of New South Wales Australia
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    I was in H&F yesterday - just for a quick look. One of the smallish lathes - it was around $3200 IIRC - didn't look bad at a quick look. D1-4 spindle, 3MT tailstock with a decent diameter quill, couple other features that looked like an improvement over past years offerings.

    Their tooling is overpriced as is their QCTP's etc. Far better just buying off of eBay.

    PDW
    Its a pretty hard call for H&F to compete on a $ by $ basis directly against Chinese ebay sellers.

    I think we're lucky that H&F is still in the game here in Oz.
    Cheers Jim
    My Youtube Channel -
    Blue Heeler's Model & Toy Steam Engine Room

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    melbourne australia
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackaroo View Post
    If I was to start again, I will start with the small lathe to learn then upgrade to something bigger...

    As for the mill I will start with something big and something that I will keep.
    I don't follow the logic of starting with a small lathe then upgrading, but starting with a big mill you want to keep.

    Unless the 'training lathe' comes with 3 & 4 jaw chucks, face plate, live centres, steadies, etc the OP will have to buy them. They won't be transferable to his second larger lathe, so I reckon the tooling argument applies equally to a lathe as a mill.
    Chris

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ferrous View Post
    Its a pretty hard call for H&F to compete on a $ by $ basis directly against Chinese ebay sellers.

    I think we're lucky that H&F is still in the game here in Oz.
    Agreed and let me be clear here - I wouldn't buy a machine tool like a lathe off of a Chinese eBay seller, too many things can go wrong there. I'd pay the H&F premium if I was buying new.

    But cutting tools & the like, different matter. I agree H&F can't sell at those prices but IMO their markup for essentially the same stuff is excessive. I have a few of their QC tool holders in the bigger Dickson style (25mm shank tooling) and I'm not impressed. They're OK but only just OK compared with the UK originals, yet the price is bloody high.

    PDW

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