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  1. #16
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    yah thanks Greg. ill just have to have a crack. im sure it doesnmt need to be the closest fitting thread.

  2. #17
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    I'm not familiar with the specific form, but a buttress thread is for heavy force in one direction and light in the other. The 5 degree side is the important one; when loaded I would expect the 45 degrees to be in clearance. On that basis, the 5 degree flank is the one I would be taking pains to get right and use as a basis for set up. The 45 degree side can vary a little without drastic consequences.

    Michael

  3. #18
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    Oct 2007
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    Sydney
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    Yes I've cut the Schaublin threads, the major difficulty was in getting the pitch correct as it is 1.666 pitch. A bit of juggling with change gears on the lathe and it's no biggie. Like most threads, the angles aren't absolutely critical, and the engagement will just be poor if you don't get it quite right. However that won't cause the world to stop turning, you will just need to cut them loose and the end result won't be as strong. Obviously not ideal and if you can hit 45/5 accurately then that should be something to aim for. There are lots of ways to set it up, but if you're limited with resources I'd suggest making up angle templates of 45 and 5 degrees so your HSS blank can ride along them on your grinder tool rest. They don't need to be steel and you could mark it out on a piece of cardboard for all it matters. I find the less resources I have the more creative I need to get. It may be slower but it's the end result that matters. I can't recall how I did mine, sorry it was a long time ago now, probably on the surface grinder orientated the other way.

    Based on my own experience with him I cannot more strongly NOT recommend the seller linked to for the dies. These dies are hard to get and he's one of the few who sells them. I ordered one to clean up the threads I'd cut (not required as it turned out, but I ordered it in anticipation of a Bozo attempt as at the time I hadn't done anything like this and wasn't sure how it would go). When it finally turned up it was absolute rubbish, completely unusable. I took photos of how bad it was and sent them to the seller. His reaction was the standard Chinese warranty customer service ... he tried to deny anything was wrong with it and it was my fault. I said the photos didn't lie and this was a joke. He finally agreed if I sent it back he would refund my money (it wasn't a cheap die BTW). My wife sent in back registered mail, obviously at my expense. What we didn't realise is that registered mail doesn't have tracking, the post office person screwed up and told my wife it did. The seller claimed he hadn't received it. After a bit of to and fro he again tied to blame me saying I had "damaged it". Given that it was unused that wasn't possible, so I asked him how would he know that if he hadn't received it! By that stage the ebay period for disputes had expired and required tracking, he reminded me of that and told me to bugger off. End result I was down the cost of the POS die, the postage to Australia and the return registered mail. It remains one of the only true really bad experiences on ebay where I did my money, about a hundred bucks all up IIRC. I've had other issues on ebay as I'm a big user, but never complain unless it's really warranted and the sellers have always agreed it was a valid complaint and we've settled to everyone's satisfaction. Anyway, that's my experience with that seller for what it's worth and I'll never touch them again with a 20 ft barge pole (other than to suggest where to shave the pole!).

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
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    Australia
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    I've always cut mine with a cheque to Franz Singer. Not cheap, but always results in a wonderful outcome.

  5. #20
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    thanks pete. for your input on grinding a tool and not buying the die. i did look online for a die but couldn't find a s20. die.
    and way i really should have a go at cutting this thread.
    hi variant did you buy S20 draw bar adapter

  6. #21
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    Oct 2007
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    Sydney
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    Oh yeah definitely have a go, grinding the tool is no big deal and of course cutting it is normal. You can even do threading with the compound offset if you want to. I haven't done any for a while so can't recall if I did that or just plunged them.

    Just be aware there has been a bit of a crossover with two different threads in this forum's thread. The Schaublin/Aciera thread (W20 thread) is nominal 20 mm and 1.66667 pitch, that's what I've cut. I believe the Deckel (S20) is 2 mm pitch, so be careful of which one you want. Obviously the 2 mm is easier to cut as any metric lathe can do it straight from the gearbox. The 1.667 pitch needs some juggling of change gears to achieve the pitch.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete F View Post
    Yes I've cut the Schaublin threads, the major difficulty was in getting the pitch correct as it is 1.666 pitch. A bit of juggling with change gears on the lathe and it's no biggie. Like most threads, the angles aren't absolutely critical, and the engagement will just be poor if you don't get it quite right. However that won't cause the world to stop turning, you will just need to cut them loose and the end result won't be as strong. Obviously not ideal and if you can hit 45/5 accurately then that should be something to aim for. There are lots of ways to set it up, but if you're limited with resources I'd suggest making up angle templates of 45 and 5 degrees so your HSS blank can ride along them on your grinder tool rest. They don't need to be steel and you could mark it out on a piece of cardboard for all it matters. I find the less resources I have the more creative I need to get. It may be slower but it's the end result that matters. I can't recall how I did mine, sorry it was a long time ago now, probably on the surface grinder orientated the other way.

    Based on my own experience with him I cannot more strongly NOT recommend the seller linked to for the dies. These dies are hard to get and he's one of the few who sells them. I ordered one to clean up the threads I'd cut (not required as it turned out, but I ordered it in anticipation of a Bozo attempt as at the time I hadn't done anything like this and wasn't sure how it would go). When it finally turned up it was absolute rubbish, completely unusable. I took photos of how bad it was and sent them to the seller. His reaction was the standard Chinese warranty customer service ... he tried to deny anything was wrong with it and it was my fault. I said the photos didn't lie and this was a joke. He finally agreed if I sent it back he would refund my money (it wasn't a cheap die BTW). My wife sent in back registered mail, obviously at my expense. What we didn't realise is that registered mail doesn't have tracking, the post office person screwed up and told my wife it did. The seller claimed he hadn't received it. After a bit of to and fro he again tied to blame me saying I had "damaged it". Given that it was unused that wasn't possible, so I asked him how would he know that if he hadn't received it! By that stage the ebay period for disputes had expired and required tracking, he reminded me of that and told me to bugger off. End result I was down the cost of the POS die, the postage to Australia and the return registered mail. It remains one of the only true really bad experiences on ebay where I did my money, about a hundred bucks all up IIRC. I've had other issues on ebay as I'm a big user, but never complain unless it's really warranted and the sellers have always agreed it was a valid complaint and we've settled to everyone's satisfaction. Anyway, that's my experience with that seller for what it's worth and I'll never touch them again with a 20 ft barge pole (other than to suggest where to shave the pole!).
    The one I got was a bit cheaper than the ebay link I posted, it was from aliexpress, so my expectations of quality are on the lower end of the scale, but visually it looks just fine.

    Here is a link to the seller, but I notice the W20 die is no longer listed.

    https://www.aliexpress.com/store/gro...608.0.0.rP7iJe

    Here's a screen grab of the one I got. It might help track down a supplier for someone.

    W20_Die.jpg

    The Aliexpress seller has the brilliant ( confidence inspiring ) name of "Bob's Grocery Shop"

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post
    The Aliexpress seller has the brilliant ( confidence inspiring ) name of "Bob's Grocery Shop"
    Ha ha, well they can't blame Google translate as Google is blocked there by the great firewall of China A bit weird when there as, along with the expected, PM won't work, presumably because of the ads served.

    It was Merlin Tools I dealt with, not good experience I'm afraid.

    Again, just a heads-up that's a W20 die and not an S20 die.

  9. #24
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    Aug 2012
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    Australia
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    Quote Originally Posted by azzrock View Post
    hi variant did you buy S20 draw bar adapter
    They are studs. S20 one end and M16 or 5/8 the other. This allows me to screw them into any BT or CAT 40 tooling and keep the great original S20x2 buttress drawbar.

    Here are some: 5 Anzugsbolzen S20x2 NEU z.B. für Deckel Fräsmaschine. | eBay

    As a side note, I highly rate Singer. He has always done the right thing by me with postage (sometimes free!) and has even at times shipped before I have paid. I guess he deals with people in good faith.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete F View Post
    Ha ha, well they can't blame Google translate as Google is blocked there by the great firewall of China A bit weird when there as, along with the expected, PM won't work, presumably because of the ads served.

    It was Merlin Tools I dealt with, not good experience I'm afraid.

    Again, just a heads-up that's a W20 die and not an S20 die.

    I think that "Bob's Grocery Shop" is actually Merlin Tools, if you look at the picture of the die from Aliexpress, that I posted it has a "Merlin Tools" embossed watermark.

    When I get around to using it, I'll let you know how it goes.

  11. #26
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    Default nice

    $57 plus postage.not to bad.
    im all most tempted. except i dont like the chances of all the draw bar thread conversions being the same

    Quote Originally Posted by variant22 View Post
    They are studs. S20 one end and M16 or 5/8 the other. This allows me to screw them into any BT or CAT 40 tooling and keep the great original S20x2 buttress drawbar.

    Here are some: 5 Anzugsbolzen S20x2 NEU z.B. für Deckel Fräsmaschine. | eBay

    As a side note, I highly rate Singer. He has always done the right thing by me with postage (sometimes free!) and has even at times shipped before I have paid. I guess he deals with people in good faith.

  12. #27
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    Default nice

    $57 plus postage.not to bad.<br>im all most tempted. except i dont like the chances of all the draw bar thread conversions being the same<br><br>
    Quote Originally Posted by variant22 View Post
    They are studs. S20 one end and M16 or 5/8 the other. This allows me to screw them into any BT or CAT 40 tooling and keep the great original S20x2 buttress drawbar. <br>
    <br>
    Here are some: <a href="http://www.ebay.de/itm/5-Anzugsbolzen-S20x2-NEU-z-B-fur-Deckel-Frasmaschine-/381535353042" target="_blank">5 Anzugsbolzen S20x2 NEU z.B. für Deckel Fräsmaschine. | eBay</a> <br>
    <br>
    As a side note, I highly rate Singer. He has always done the right thing by me with postage (sometimes free!) and has even at times shipped before I have paid. I guess he deals with people in good faith.
    <br>
    <br>

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by azzrock View Post
    $57 plus postage.not to bad.
    im all most tempted. except i dont like the chances of all the draw bar thread conversions being the same
    Yeah good luck with that. I have M16, 5/8-11 in Cat 40 (got the extension bit) BT40 (no extension) etc etc. I have a lot of short thread adaptors (M16 coupling nuts work well) and it's a right PITA. Sometimes I feel like shooting the machine tool people for not agreeing on a standard, any standard would have done.

    Some of my stuff also has that 20mm buttress thread.

    PDW

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post
    I think that "Bob's Grocery Shop" is actually Merlin Tools, if you look at the picture of the die from Aliexpress, that I posted it has a "Merlin Tools" embossed watermark.
    That was what I was getting at Ray. I think they sell under various names but the picture is always the same and watermarked Merlin Tools. I can't imagine they've just stolen their photo. What do you have that's W20 BTW?

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete F View Post
    That was what I was getting at Ray. I think they sell under various names but the picture is always the same and watermarked Merlin Tools. I can't imagine they've just stolen their photo. What do you have that's W20 BTW?
    I have a Schaffner cylindrical grinder that uses W20's There's a few pictures here //metalworkforums.com/f65/t1993...nt#post1907628

    The plan is to grind an ER32 straight shank collet chuck between centers to the required taper, then anneal just the end so I can cut the W20 thread, if all goes according to plan and I get lucky the run-out should be ok.

    Most of the time I'd expect to be grinding between centers, but in the rare cases that's not possible, I'd like the option to use ER32 collets. I don't want to shell out for a set of W20 collets that I'd hardly ever use.

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