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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
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    nashville
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    1

    Default Beginning Metalworking: Working with Aluminum on a Small Scale

    Hi,

    I am completely new to metalworking, and know very, very little about it, so please keep that in mind.
    For the past couple of years, I have been working with leather, primarily making watch straps.
    In my free time, I purchase watches to sell to classmates, and have made a generous profit. It made me very interested in watches, and for the past ~2 years I have been thoroughly researching watches. Every now and again, I completely disassemble cheap Chinese watches, just so I can see what goes into them. I know the basics of what you need:

    Dial, movement (automatic/mechanical/quartz), dial feet (location depending on movement), case, case back, crystal, threaded hole for the movement stem, crown, and lugs for the strap.

    Here is what I can do with metal at this point:

    I have built an aluminum smeltery (very shoddy, based on a youtube video; basically plaster in a steel bucket with a weed blower spitting fire onto a graphite cup), I have mediocre experience with a dremel, and that is basically it.

    I have a few burning questions, and since I am new, I lack the terminology to further research these things. This is going to be a long post, for those still reading.

    Dial: I need help on cutting sheet metal into "perfect" 30mm and 24.5mm disks. I know there are several ways to go about this: a dremel (what I have been doing, pretty unsuccessfully for that matter), a disk cutter (which, for the life of me, I cannot find one that includes a 30mm disk), a jigsaw (not my idea of precision), an air nibbler (which leaves a huge cutting width), and a drill-attached hole cutter (too large). I have absolutely no idea what I should do, any help is totally appreciated. Additionally, I would like to know how to make the date window and how to get a clean hole in the center for the movement/hands.

    Here's as good as I could get with the dremel:
    IMG_3237.jpg

    Case/Caseback: I know the basics of sandcasting. I have a two-piece aluminum flask, and a pack of casting sand. I have not taken up the motivation to use these because of schoolwork eating up most of my time. From all of the tutorials and articles I've seen, the objects that are sandcasted are usually in two pieces. How should I cast this? I will attach pictures. Also, I have looked into lost wax casting, and I simply do not have the money to buy a wax injection machine. Any way around that? Additionally, I feel like since the caseback is so thin, it will be hard to keep the shape of it well in the sand. If anyone could direct me to a video or article on the best way to deal with very small-scale, flat items for sandcasting, I would really appreciate that.
    IMG_3241.jpgIMG_3244.jpgIMG_3243.jpg

    Dial Markings: I would also like to know if there is a possible to (at home) craft the tiny, thin dial markings that you see on dive watches. I will attach a photo so you understand what I'm trying to say.
    IMG_3238.jpg

    Anodization: I'm working with Aluminum, and I would like to dye it. I know that anodization allows you to do this. I know what anodization is, how to do it, and what results it will give you. But I don't know what it really means. Also, since there are some serious chemicals involved, I would really like a full understanding of what to do before hand. (By the way, do you really have to use sulfuric acid? Or is there an alternative, I read about pH down being effective, but I didn't know for sure)

    As far as watch hands, crowns, stems, movements, crystals, etc, I am sourcing all of those wholesale from China/Japan.

    So, if you have read this far: Are my aspirations too far-fetched? Should I be thinking in a completely different way? Like I said, I am quite unintelligible in the metalworking world. Absolutely any tips or steers in the right direction could take me a mile.

    Please keep in mind: I do not have a massive amount of money; I cannot afford some of the equipment that could make this a lot easier. Maybe I will in the future, and maybe this job is a little unreasonable without that equipment, so if you could, answer me in the cheap way and the expensive way, so I can know for now and for the future.

    Thank you,
    Quinn

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Melbourne
    Age
    35
    Posts
    1,522

    Default

    Im no expert on casting, so I will leave that for someone who is, but if i were you I would start looking immedately, and as you are in the magical USA it shouldnt be too hard, for a small lathe on craigslist, preferrably a matchmakers type unit, this will let you go two things:

    Trepanning disks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-t8m3YTTu8

    And simple dividing using holes in the headstock pulley, this is how you would evenly space those divisions in your wooden pattern: I cannot find a video specifically on this, but this youtube channel covers a number of really simple dividing operations on the lathe: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXG...1nJBgHdxPdvkjQ

    I had a look on nashville craigslist but nothing jumped out at me.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Rockhampton, QLD
    Age
    68
    Posts
    454

    Default

    Welcome to the forum.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Australia east coast
    Age
    71
    Posts
    2,713

    Default

    You are about to take a very deep dive into metalwork if you're not careful.

    Everything you mention can be done but not by hand tools (unless you're a master craftsman with years of experience).

    Likely you need a lathe, milling machine and rotary table to get going.

    The good news is, for aluminium and other soft metals, the Sherline range of tools is quite acceptable.

    PDW

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Norwood-ish, Adelaide
    Age
    59
    Posts
    6,540

    Default

    I second what PDW says...
    Rather than trying to cast the case and back in Al, as you would have to spend considerable time cleaning the surface up, why not machine them from scratch? The case back is a natural for being turned on a lathe and a good proportion of the case could be done on a lathe too. (you will need a mill and rotary table to do the rest).
    Your questions about holes and dials and markings depends on what you want to do but a lathe will allow you to cut a thin disc smoothly and put a hole in the middle. The date hole may have to be made with a needle file from a round hole, the raised markings could be cut/ filed from thin sheet and then attached (glued probably)

    Michael

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
    Age
    74
    Posts
    5,080

    Default

    Hi Quinn, welcome to the forum.

    Watchmaking is an old old profession, and has a long history and tradition of using hand tools, for the type of work you are looking at I'd be looking for advice from a watchmaker, horologist if you prefer.

    A small watchmakers lathe, maybe a pantograph for dial engraving etc. There might even be a forum for horologists?

    On thing I know for sure, and that is it's a skill that is rapidly passing into history, if you are lucky you might find someone willing to pass on those skills.

    A quick search for horology forums came up with this Online Discussion Forums | Horology - The Index

    I'd try the horology societies and see if there is someone local to you.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    sydney ( st marys )
    Age
    64
    Posts
    4,887

    Default

    Good luck doing PERFECT in your back yard.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    melbourne
    Posts
    341

    Default

    How about looking at it a different way and follow your interest in watches more directly? It’s a fairly normal route into horology through fixing mechanical watches for instance. You can buy them dead cheap on ebay strip and clean them and fix them up. There’s loads of info and videos on how to strip and rebuild a watch. It’s very easy to take one apart, but have you managed to put one back together and it keeps time? You might think its just the opposite of taking it apart, but if anyone has ever successfully rebuilt their first watch, I’d say it was a fluke. If that interests you, you will find answers to all your questions, relevant to watches, over the next years. You can go as far in to the hobby as you want including metallurgy and making parts. Most of us just buy a parts watch, making parts is way to difficult. Cousins in the uk has loads of new parts. I went as far as making a stem for a watch. It varied between 0.6mm and 1mm with a 1x0.25mm thread. Very difficult for me to make. In the end I had to use D1 steel, nothing else was tough enough and I had to develop my own technique for taping a 1x0.25 mm thread in stainless steel crowns which I’ve never seen anyone mention. Anyway, later on I found a substitute part and bought 12 stems for $12 delivered.
    Dials are mostly plated brass or stainless steel, perhaps with some engine turning, and painted with a transparent or solid coloured lacquer. Those tiny markers and serial numbers are probably painted on. They are what make it possible to tell fake watches, because its impossible to reproduce them outside of whatever process the factory makes them. India has got better at faking them which must be a large scale operation with a lot of money behind the technology, but you can still tell. Be very wary of spending any significant money on a watch from india. If you are buying a watch, don’t buy it thinking you will be able to improve a dial just by cleaning it. The paint is water soluble as are all those little markers. Some people say spit can help, because of the enzymes in it. If you just gob on the dial you can be guaranteed it’s stuffed. You’ve kind of got to feel your way by yourself, no-one will tell you their little secrets. You’ll get hints, that’s all. Dial restoration is a black art and hardly anyone does it well. The big chunky hour markers can be bought from cousins etc, they just glue on. Actually I use Labanda - Watch Spare Parts for tools and generic parts, they are very helpful if you ask on specific problems.
    Here’s some pictures of a couple of 45 year old watches I did, with the ebay pictures I bought from.

    ScreenShot114.jpg
    For the hexagonal watch I made the crown, but you can still buy them for $40. The tricky part was polishing that case without losing the sharp lines. Now I have a milling machine I hope to do even better on this, but this was all done by hand so you don’t need big bucks to get started.
    ScreenShot110.jpg
    This other one is a strange watch, 1970’s design. It looks terrible in the pictures but in real life it looks very funky. The one with the brown bezel is all original for comparison. These are mechanical watches with an alarm bell. The one I bought on ebay didn’t have a bezel, or buttons or a crown. I decided if a little bezel looks good, a great big one must look even better, right? I ended up doing two different buttons, I prefer the first picture. It was supposed to be tongue in cheek but I actually wear it, it looks so whacky. So you can make big parts like crowns and bezels without too much trouble if you get into metalwork although you will need a lathe and a watchmakers lathe might not be tough enough for stainless bezels, not sure. If you want to make cogs and the like you really need to follow that path through watchmaking forums. It will take years to pick up the knowledge. And I'm sorry to say, despite what Opera might tell about how you’ve just got to want it badly enough, you will never be able to build a Breitling watch from raw materials (unless you have enough money to buy the factory)

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    melbourne
    Posts
    341

    Default

    I didn’t know how they get the paint onto dials so perfectly so I went searching. Sometimes the dials have a bevelled edge and still they manage to get the paint so perfect. I found this video, jump to 4:15 if you want to see how it can be done. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1L15xehfEA
    I guess they use cnc to make the master now. About 4:07 they briefly show a pantograph thing that I assume reduces human movement and shake and would allow perfect looking engraving, back in yore before NC. They do mill those tiny little cogs, using a baby hob gear cutter at 1:10 - I always wondered if they just pressed them.
    I also came across this, which I didn’t know existed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmxLAZZ2fhM Very interesting movement, should appeal to the mechanically minded of us. I like it so much, I’d pay up to $400 for one, unfortunately I think they want 1000x’s that.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Far West Wimmera
    Age
    63
    Posts
    4,049

    Default

    This reminds me to put my 34 year old digital watch back together. The buttons were stiff to operate. Years ago I tried to get new seals fitted to the 4 buttons, but was told the watch had to be sent away for pressure testing afterwards so the seals could be tested for water tightness. This was going to cost about twice what the watch cost me originally. I put up with it. I got a Ultrasonic cleaner last year and when the battery in this watch went flat (10 Year) I had the great idea of cleaning the watch case. An hour later and the buttons were working like it was new. I had taken to adjusting the time with a pin from inside. It used to be the most accurate time piece I came into contact with. It was accurate to within a few seconds per year, based on Telstra Time. "At the stroke". I have not worn this watch once since I left work nearly 15 months ago and it has been in pieces for several months now. A matter of time and remembering to do it. I also have my newer watch sitting next to it in pieces waiting for the battery to be fitted.

    Dean

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    melbourne
    Posts
    341

    Default

    I stripped and cleaned a vintage watch as a favour for a guy at work. I used to not bother about seals in vintage watches because its hard to get them exact and I didn't think it mattered too much here in Australia because its so dry. However, he washed his hands while wearing it and brought it back with steam inside. I dried it all out and cleaned oiled it again and told him these old watches aren't waterproof, but I had put in new orings on the button which should help. Did he want me to buy a $10 seal for the back, with $10 for delivery? No, that was too much and the case back seal looks ok to him. So I thought he had learned his lesson and would take the watch off before washing his hands, but no, it came back again. I made a brass adapter on the lathe which was a push fit onto the crown of the case, and pressured the watch with a syringe. I took the movement out completely but left the second button in with its seal.
    ScreenShot034.jpg
    It leaked all round the back as you can see, so he reluctantly decided to pay for the case seal. Its a cheap way to check for water resistance, especially if you have two buttons like this watch did because you can try the seal on each, one at a time but putting pressure through the other. I wouldn't recommend testing it this way at any significant psi mind you.
    The way they test for pressure on a watch for diving is to put it in a glass tank, above the water level, and then pressurise the tank. Then lower the watch into the water and let off the pressure and watch for bubbles. That way, you are not forcing water into the watch if it leaks a little.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Far West Wimmera
    Age
    63
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    4,049

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    My watch used to cop everything like handwashing etc, but I finally decided that it was no longer safe to regard it as waterproof. The face glass (plastic) has cracks and chips and does leak a bit. After 34 years I suspect a replacement may be a bit hard to source. The watch has sentimental value because I bought my ex wife a watch on the day our daughter was born, and then went back the next day to buy myself one. Hers lasted maybe 10 years.

    Dean

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Bungama SA
    Age
    52
    Posts
    960

    Default

    qin, have you looked up any watchmaking forums? Like The Watch Forum
    ....................................................................

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    melbourne
    Posts
    341

    Default

    As qin says, sometimes its hard to get started when you don't know what to ask. I find once you get going, it becomes easy to search for specific things you need to find out about. Here's a good link to start with, to get you into repairing mechanical watches.
    How to repair a Seiko 7S26 Automatic wrist watch I didn't buy that movement or follow his guide directly, but just reading his info is very useful. I found that ladies mechanical watches from the 70's are dead cheap on ebay. Blokes watches are more expensive, and when they break, blokes being blokes will think they can repair it and damage it permanently. ladies don't do that. So for $10 you can get a nice looking ladies watch that is not working. What happens is the oil dries out and the thing won't run because the oil is sticky. It usually just needs stripped and cleaned and you have a working watch again. Even fixed up however, ladies watches aren't worth a huge amount second hand. ladies being ladies, don't like second hand crap unlike blokes who will wear any old stuff if they think is cool. The only advice on that link to avoid is how to hold the balance wheel. He shows how to dangle the balance wheel by its cock. Nothing likes to be dangled by its cock, especially ladies balance wheels. The hairspring is far too fine on a ladies watch to do that, something he didn't point out. You will immediately screw up the hairspring beyond repair. I'm sure the author knows that, but unfortunately I didn't and I had to get another donor watch to repair the damage I did. Working on ladies watches is harder because everything is smaller, but when you start on more expensive mens watches, its like working on a train instead of a car, the difference is that noticeable and so much easier. look for Seiko 2205 movements, they are very cheap, basic and usually just need cleaned to get going. You mightbneed to inspect the photos to see 2205 on the back. The Seiko forum has manuals for all movements. Seiko & Citizen Watch Forum – Japanese Watch Reviews, Discussion & Trading Seiko watches are a good thing to collect because you can date them and they are still cheapish. There is a feeling that mechanical watches for the 70's will never be surpassed because people still needed them to keep time with (no digital) and they were at the pinnacle of design. The styling is cool (I think anyway) and there is a finite number of them which is always a good thing wrt to collecting/value. They are just as good quality as expensive swiss brands but there is a lot of snobbery which keeps Seiko prices affordable second hand. Some people think there is no comparison but you can actually compare Seiko directly to swiss watches. The grand Seiko for instance is very expensive and precise but very expensive too.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    119

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sossity View Post
    As qin says, sometimes its hard to get started when you don't know what to ask. I find once you get going, it becomes easy to search for specific things you need to find out about. Here's a good link to start with, to get you into repairing mechanical watches.
    How to repair a Seiko 7S26 Automatic wrist watch I didn't buy that movement or follow his guide directly, but just reading his info is very useful. I found that ladies mechanical watches from the 70's are dead cheap on ebay. Blokes watches are more expensive, and when they break, blokes being blokes will think they can repair it and damage it permanently. ladies don't do that. So for $10 you can get a nice looking ladies watch that is not working. What happens is the oil dries out and the thing won't run because the oil is sticky. It usually just needs stripped and cleaned and you have a working watch again. Even fixed up however, ladies watches aren't worth a huge amount second hand. ladies being ladies, don't like second hand crap unlike blokes who will wear any old stuff if they think is cool. The only advice on that link to avoid is how to hold the balance wheel. He shows how to dangle the balance wheel by its cock. Nothing likes to be dangled by its cock, especially ladies balance wheels. The hairspring is far too fine on a ladies watch to do that, something he didn't point out. You will immediately screw up the hairspring beyond repair. I'm sure the author knows that, but unfortunately I didn't and I had to get another donor watch to repair the damage I did. Working on ladies watches is harder because everything is smaller, but when you start on more expensive mens watches, its like working on a train instead of a car, the difference is that noticeable and so much easier. look for Seiko 2205 movements, they are very cheap, basic and usually just need cleaned to get going. You mightbneed to inspect the photos to see 2205 on the back. The Seiko forum has manuals for all movements. Seiko & Citizen Watch Forum – Japanese Watch Reviews, Discussion & Trading Seiko watches are a good thing to collect because you can date them and they are still cheapish. There is a feeling that mechanical watches for the 70's will never be surpassed because people still needed them to keep time with (no digital) and they were at the pinnacle of design. The styling is cool (I think anyway) and there is a finite number of them which is always a good thing wrt to collecting/value. They are just as good quality as expensive swiss brands but there is a lot of snobbery which keeps Seiko prices affordable second hand. Some people think there is no comparison but you can actually compare Seiko directly to swiss watches. The grand Seiko for instance is very expensive and precise but very expensive too.
    Qin, the process for printing the dial is to use a Gelatin bun. The machine to do this can be seen as Watch Printer Tool Watch Printing Machine Dial Printing Machine | eBay




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