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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
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    Melbourne, Australia
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    742

    Default Brown and Sharpe No 2 Surface Grinder - the basket case

    Hi all,

    This is a continuation of a thread about the above from here:

    //metalworkforums.com/f65/t1997...grinder-manual

    A quick summary: I posted an online classified 'wanted' ad looking for an old surface grinder looking for a good home. The result thus far is a B&S no 2 S/N #8183 'followed me home'. With the help of my visiting mother (who turned 69 that very day) and Peter, Bruce and Barry - who really did all the hard work - 650kg of rusted worry ended up in my garage.

    For reasons unknown, the recently deceased owner had disassembled the grinder and put everything except the body, vertical column and table in boxes and left them outside in the weather for, if I understood correctly, about 10 years.

    Some pictures can tell the story - warning: some images may upset some viewers:

    IMAG0102.jpgIMAG0109.jpgIMAG0110.jpgIMAG0111.jpgIMAG0112.jpg

    Pretty grim sight. Some more:

    IMAG0106.jpgIMAG0107.jpg

    However, the body and table have been kept inside and are actually in pretty good condition - everything being relative:

    IMAG0103.jpgIMAG0104.jpgIMAG0105.jpg

    I'll get some pics of the table underside and the body ways but my garage is not that well lit and my phone takes terrible photos. As demonstrated by the above slightly out-of-focus pics. Apologies.

    Continued:

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
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    Melbourne, Australia
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    Default

    And some more of the body. Joe, you wanted some pics of same - what are you looking for may I ask?

    IMAG0122.jpgIMAG0123.jpgIMAG0126.jpg

    As I said in the other thread, I'll take a steady-as-she-goes approach here to do some due diligence about whether it is saveable or not. The two real danger items I have seen so far are the clutch assembly and the spindle.

    The clutch went into the back-yard electrolysis bath last night. Some before:

    IMAG0135.jpgIMAG0136.jpgIMAG0138.jpgIMAG0140.jpgIMAG0141.jpg


    and after 24 hours at about 1amp:

    IMAG0143.jpgIMAG0144.jpg

    So, looks good, but the issue is not really surface rust, but the rust that has entered those oil holes and/or seized shafts. I am leaving it for one more day before it gets a wd40 soak.

    But this is a concern. I initially I thought the spindle was frozen, but this highlights my naivety. It was the spindle housing I was looking at .. this, I believe is the spindle, and this is really not very good news (apols for crap pics - I'll try to do better but I have a cheap phone):

    IMAG0147.jpgIMAG0148.jpgIMAG0151.jpg

    As I understand it these ladies have quite a precise taper and are, well, extremely precise. I have put it in the electrolysis bath, but not sure about this - it looks pretty bad. All advice welcome.

    Greg.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    near Warragul, Victoria
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    3,422

    Default Keep looking

    If it turns out to be too much of a basket case , then you can at least use it for spares - maybe. Keep looking around for another one in better shape ? I found the Parkinson No.1 mill by placing a Wanted ad in 'The Trader' paper . Good Luck

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Near Bendigo, Victoria, AUS
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    69
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    2,861

    Default

    I spotted the spindle and its condition in your first photos. Don't despair - yet. When you/we identify the type, it may turn out to be a roller bearing spindle and what it looks like won't matter - only the dimensions.
    It looks nothing like my plain bearing spindle, in which case that would require a replica or spare find.
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    742

    Default

    morrisman, thanks - I haven;t stopped looking as yet. ) btw, this did come from a wanted ad I placed on gumtree.

    Joe. Cool. Thanks. I put it in the 'e-bath' last night to help clean it up a little. Some other stuff stewing away. I'll be going back over your build thread tonight. )

    A US gent Bob Korves may be joining us here to offer some advice - he has just finished a BS2 rebuild. He emailed me this last night:

    "I looked at your pics on Metalwork Forums. Most of those parts do not look too bad. Cast iron especially cleans up well after looking hopeless. The spindle is not like mine. Mine is a plain bearing spindle, and it has a high precision, very gradually tapered spindle, along with bronze "boxes" which are the hand scraped bushings the spindle rides in. It is all plain bearing, no balls or rollers, simple but tricky.


    The spindle parts I could see in your pics, which was just the shaft, the rear pulley, and the wheel adapter, minus the housing and bearings, is an anti friction spindle, meaning precision ball bearings. Other spindles can and have been adapted to the BS2 grinder, and many other grinders as well. The BS2 was also offered with spindles with integral motors, the motor just to the rear of the spindle, using a flex coupling, and moving up and down with the spindle. That can be done, but then you would only need the feed belt, would not need the big motor just to drive the table, etc. Many people have done those mods on many types of grinders. I really do not know that much about them, but I assume that many of them were real hash jobs that do not do good work or used the capabilities built into the grinder. Others are probably just fine, and a few of them are probably genuine improvements from the original.


    So there are other options to keep in mind. The BS2 has probably been modified more than all the other surface grinders put together."

    Today is "get it off the trailer day and get it upright" ... and "buy more rebar pieces to get more electrolysis happening". I took the clutch out of the e-bath last night and gave it a darn good scrub and soaking with wd40. I'll do that for a few days. Other small bits that have siezed assemblies have gone in the bath too.

    Greg.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Sacramento, Calif. USA
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    70
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    10

    Default

    Part of your spindle is still on the machine. Surface grinder spindles are not very complicated, just fussy. Pitting will not hurt any of the spindle parts except for the bearings, and we all know that they are toast. The shaft and housing are usable if they can properly support the bearings and seals. The tapered nose of the spindle must be able to accurately support the wheel adapter. That is about it. If it can be made solid, made accurate, and made oil tight, it will work. Anything you don't like the looks of can be covered with filler putty and paint. So it is certainly not hopeless. Did you take the drive gearing that you had in the electrolysis apart yet? After soaking it you need to disassemble it and get the water and electrolyte out of it or it will just get worse than it is now. Squirts of oily solvents will not get into all the nooks and crevices and moisture will just continue the rot. If I were you, the very first thing I would do is find someone who has several of these grinders for supplying parts as you need them.

    Are there many of those B & S grinders in OZ?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Australia east coast
    Age
    68
    Posts
    2,623

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Korves View Post

    Are there many of those B & S grinders in OZ?
    Probably a fair few about. I looked at one in Sydney a few months back - part of a shop that was being shut down & auctioned off. Didn't check the spindle, there was so much free play/backlash in the screws that I lost interest immediately. I already have enough projects to keep me busy until sometime after 2100....

    PDW

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Murray Bridge S Aust.
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    68
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    4,780

    Default

    Welcome to a top forum Bob.
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
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    Default

    Welcome Bob, great to have you along.

    Along for response delay. The only time I got yesterday was spent getting it off the trailer (laying horizontal) to vertical and against the wall. Took three hours, but a great family activity to undertake with visiting mother. )

    Getting things apart as soon as possible sounds like good advice. Later this afternoon I'll attempt to start taking a few things off if I can. There are another few small assembles that look pretty seized. I'll get some pics along later today. They've been in the bath and got a good compressed air blowout and are 'soaking' in wd40 now.

    In terms of getting some of these apart. All advice welcomed, but I was going to heat the casting and give things a bit of a thump here and there and if they don't shift try to ease them out with the shop press.

    For hex set screws, heat the casting around them and if they seem stuck use a (manual) impact screwdriver with hex head to see if they give in.

    Sound reasonable?

    I'll also see if I can convince the spindle housing to some apart.

    Bob, I doubt we have quite as many of these units around here as in the US. I'll be keeping my eye out. I have a lead for some spares, but I've yet to phone. I did last week visit a (very) large warehouse of used old equipment here in Melbourne while sniffing about and they didn't have one - not even in the "rust and die" stuff out and around the building. I'l keep an eye on ebay US as well.

    By the way, I like "not complicated, just fussy". Good description. MY take is it can also be interpreted as "take care with the details - they'll make a difference to the outcome". Good advice.

    Greg.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Sacramento, Calif. USA
    Age
    70
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    10

    Default

    It is always great when you can get your mother to help set the grinder upright. I'm moving to OZ... 8^)

    I have not used electrolysis, only Evaporust and various acids for removing rust. I know that parts do need to be properly dried and oiled after soaking them in aqueous solutions. I would not soak anything until you are ready to rework it to completion. If you keep the rusted parts in a dry place, the rust will grow very slowly, measured in years. If you leave them wet and poorly protected after removing the rust, I fear that the rust will return with a vengeance. Again, I have no personal experience with electrolysis.

    Your ideas about freeing stuck shafts and fasteners are fine, just do not be in a hurry. Let some penetrant soak on it for hours, try to turn it both ways, using a torque much lower than what can damage anything or a 'small' hammer. If it does not move, put on some more penetrant and walk away until the next day. Work on something else. This is not a race. It took decades for it to get like it is, so see if you can wait mere weeks for results if necessary. "First, cause no harm."

    The B & S #2 grinder and its variants were made from the 1920's to the 1950's. Mine is serial number 17047, built in 1946 or 1947. My guess is that B & S built more than 20,000 of these grinders. Find people with parts machines, even across oceans for critically needed small parts. Talk REAL nice to them... 8^)

    Please remember that this project is a marathon, not a sprint. Steady and daily effort wins the race...
    -Bob Korves

  11. #11
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    Aug 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
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    742

    Default Toasted spindle

    Thanks Bob,

    Re serial number, some scouting around suggests this SN 8138 is from the late 20's.

    I gave the spindle some attention today. The spindle housing remained on the vertical so I removed the lock nuts and the front and rear 'boxes' (as the parts list refers to them as). This spindle has no precision bearings. It is simply a shaft lubricated by felt strips contained in the (bronze?) tapered 'boxes' - which I guess serve as tapered bushings. Here is the housing assembly after a simple 'get the cr*p off' clean.

    IMAG0217.jpgIMAG0218.jpg

    The spindle itself has suffered from the elements. The front bearing surface is badly pitted and the rear seems quite worn - note the wear ridge:

    IMAG0219.jpgIMAG0220.jpg

    I am guessing this spindle is no longer pining for the fjords so chalk up one thing the needs replacing/fabricating. If there is any good news here it is that the spindle is not an amazingly complex thing so could be perhaps re-made - it is not even hardened. Wear on the spindle means wear on the bushings so there is scoring on the inside of those. If this project gets to remaking a spindle then I guess those box bushings may need attention as well in case they've gone out-of-round or something. I'm new at this, so advice appreciated.

    With this guy - the spindle end, does the center 'spindle' nut acts as a locking nut for the 'spindle wheel nut'? So remove the inner nut first?

    IMAG0221.jpg

    This looks pretty seized on - but I'll get some heat on it tomorrow. If the spindle is toast, not even sure this is worth saving. But.. if it comes off okay then groovy.

    Btw, all apologies in advance for my naivety about grinders - I've never used one or even touched one. I was looking for one to learn on (starting with making some gibs strips). Life has a habit of throwing things at you. But .. it was the same for the lathe the mill and the shaper. They all got stripped to nuts and bolts before they did anything (the shaper is still not quite there). I think it is a great way to learn about the machine you're going to use.

    Re the electrolysis. I've done it quite a number of times before but never on assemblies - only on individual pieces - so I get the concern on water remaining inside. After they come out of the bath they get a good hose down and then a compressed air blowout. Then a good soaking with wd40. An individual part done like that will not re-rust. I had some parts on the south bend that, after that process, I didn't attend to for 6 months. All good.

    In this case, with stuck assemblies, I agree. Work on them as soon as you can. If really stuck, make an offering to the old gods of sliding surfaces and get on with something else. Though, I suspect, not even those old gods may not be able to help with some of this stuff. Only time will tell, but I anticipate a breakage or two. Oh well.

    Here is my extremely non-professional looking e-bath shortly after getting stuff in, then then after an hour or so. Running off a car battery charger it only pulls about 1.5 amps so it isn't dangerous - you can put your hands in it no problems. The electrolyte is tap water with a few spoons of pool ph increaser (sold as 'soda ash' here - i got mine at Bunnings). Some use washing powder.

    IMAG0204.jpgIMAG0222.jpg

    The vertical rods you see carry the positive, the items to be de-rusted hang by wire from the horizontal bars into the water - the horizontal bars are attached to the negative.

    It works really well though stuff comes out with a black surface. I normally use a small piece of green scotch brite pad to help remove the black - scrubbing under running water is fine.

    As my object at this time is not to pimp it up but simply to remove rust and grease and crud from stuff and see if I can un-freeze free some important assemblies I am not worried about the black surface coating. Just a quick scrub, a lot of compressed air, then a lot of wd40. I bought a 4 liter tub of it for this.

    More tomorrow. I've got a lot in the e-bath tonight and I'll try to disassemble the clutch assembly. Stay tooned.

    Greg.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Norwood-ish, Adelaide
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    56
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    5,720

    Default

    My former employer uses a company down Altona way called United Surface Techologies (UST). They do HVOF coatings and typically would build up shafts and then regrind. If your spindle is basically good but pitted/ damaged at bearing locations, they may be able to bring it back to a useable condition. There may be others around but theirs is the only company I have personal experience with. Would they do a simple one off like yours? Maybe...

    As for the spindle end, my SG has a wheel hub that fits on the spindle taper and is held there with a SHCS. Yours looks similar. Check your wheel hub nut - if it is LH thread then the screw securing it to the hub will also be LH thread (if it is LH thread it also means your motor needs to be set up to throw sparks to the left - that is, the wheel rotates clockwise looking at it)

    Michael

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    near Warragul, Victoria
    Posts
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    Default

    There is a book in the Workshop Practice series , its Number 27 'SPINDLES' author Harprit Sandhu

  14. #14
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    Aug 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
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    Default

    Thanks Michael, noted. I had some spindle work done about a year ago by HM Precision Grinding and they did a good job, and they did re-chroming as well. However, I notice their web site is no longer working - so maybe they no longer exist ....

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
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    Near Bendigo, Victoria, AUS
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    Default

    You are getting good information here!
    The slotted nut inside the wheel hub is indeed LH thread! You will need a nice hard very well fitting forked 'key' to undo it - particularly as it is rusted on AND in. Once you have that off and out, the remaining hub is on a very close fitting taper. With luck, the rust may have been excluded by the tight fit. A stout bearing puller should get that off the spindle -maybe with a little help from big hammer.
    I agree with the you abut reproducing a new spindle - to match the diameters of the possibly freshly reamed taper bushes. Perhaps you can make the replacement on the lathe a thou or two oversize and one of our members will grind it to size in a cylindrical grinder. You could make it out of tool steel and harden it or have it case hardened before grinding?
    On the other hand, you may be surprised at how little wear there is in the bronze bushes! I'm always amazed that the steel running in bronze always wears faster.

    Them again, since you may have to deal with all spindle parts, you may want to consider converting it to precision roller bearings instead. That might mean having the spindle housing line bored on a horizontal borer to suit bearings you can get affordably.

    Let me know when you would like a visit. Oh, a friend near me has a B&S with auto feed like yours if we need to verify any assembly issues (as mine is manual).
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

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