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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
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    vancouver BC Canada
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    Default where can I buy good metalworking vices?

    Im a millwright and service a large welding department. The old vices are Record ones and Made in england.

    the newer stuff is Irwin record or other made in india junk and it won't stand up to the constant abuse students dish out. I want to recommend purchasing some good quality ones that will last but I don't know where to look for quality and used ones aren't an option although that's what I'd look for if it were just one or two for myself. I can't get approval for used stuff.

    I'd like about 8 Inch jaws but size isn't so important. As most of you probably know the ones coming out of china or India are junk and not really worth trying to fix when they wear and break.

    Is there still a quality maker in existence? old English record ones lasted 30 years no problem , the new irwin ones and whatnot are good for a year then they are all loose and the threaded shafts and related parts are so worn out they become unusable.

    sometimes they beef up the jaws since they are welders. that isn't a problem. the problem is finding anything made of good steel castings. any suggestions would be very much appreciated. asking students to be gentle isn't an option because of the rotation.

    Phil

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Norwood-ish, Adelaide
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    59
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    Here in Australia, we have Dawn.
    Engineers Vices - Cast
    Some of the dawn range is made OS while some is still made locally.
    I can't say how long the vices made now will last but it is common to find old dawn vices still kicking around that were bought years ago.

    Michael

  3. #3
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    Sep 2016
    Location
    vancouver BC Canada
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    thanks Michael . I emailed them . I kind of don't' think they will ship to Canada and it says they sell to dealers only but who knows. maybe there is a north American distributor and if not maybe I could put them in touch with one if they are still cast in Australia.

    I have seen some big old Japanese ones that looked pretty good but I guess most of those makers probably moved production to kids working in their parents basements overseas too. I installed 4 today, all made in India. The things are real junk.

    Phil

  4. #4
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    I've emailed them about shipping to North America and a distributor there too, so we will see what happens (didn't realise you would be so quick off the mark). Depending on how many you want they may be willing to come to the party (an 8" vice is around 60kg - won't get that sent via Australia post). Just one may be more trouble than it's worth but if you are installing 4 at a time...
    A third option could be to buy direct from a local distributor here and get them to ship to you. Messy, but if it gets you want you want then it may be worth it. My local engineering supplies shop stocks Dawn so may be prepared to take part in this logistics exercise. Let me know if Plans A and B fall over and I can ask about C if you want.


    Further information - Dawn are willing to export direct although concerned about freight costs. I think they are a great Aussie product so I'm hoping that they can work things out, even look at starting to distribute into NA.

    Michael
    Last edited by Michael G; 2nd Sep 2016 at 05:10 PM. Reason: Further information added

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Murray Bridge S Aust.
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    71
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    Welcome to a Top Forum Phil. As you're in charge of a lot of welding equipment, had you thought about making your own out of plate. I have a fabricated one and is virtually unbreakable, except for the screws holding the jaws. If you have a machine shop there, they could cut the screw threads as a part of training, while the welding shop bends and fabricates the rest. Getting hold of a fabricated plan shouldn't be that hard, and if nothing available, get hold of one and draw it up to suit the size required. They could even make a smaller one for themselves if required! It would be a good experience for the Students.
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Mackay North Qld
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    Hi and welcome to our Forum

    Our Aussie dawn vices are very good ,I''ll admit,but surely a quality vise bought closer to home might be quite bit less especially if shipping is a factor.

    Unless Dawn have presence in Canada its a long way to ship a lot of heavy iron.

    This crowd are next door to you -so to speak- over the border may well be a bit more accessible.

    From what I understand they are a quality product.

    8" Tradesman Combination Pipe and Bench Vise, Swivel Base - Made in USA Tradesman Vises - Industrial Grade - Bench Vises - Products

    Grahame

  7. #7
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    Sep 2016
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    vancouver BC Canada
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    I'm really glad I joined and you have a great forum here. I really appreciate all the response.
    I work with several departments not just welding and the problem of such saturation of inferior quality offshore machinery and castings seems to be a concern not just for welders but auto mechanics and carpenters, joiners and machinists too.

    The factory did communicate well with me and I sent out some email to various departments get a better idea on the volume. My thoughts are that the shipping would be ridiculous for just a few but If I am able to bridge the communications gaps and see if they might all be interested in grouping together then it might be practical to get them all on the same page to do a group purchase.

    I had a quick look at the Yost website. I think they would have a statement on their website if their products are founded or cast in the US but that didn't appear to be the case. they make claims about the age of the company but I can't see any claim it is cast by a US foundry.

    Of course I can't tell what the quality is from a picture but I got the feeling these are offshore products. I don't really know for sure so I can't make that claim with accuracy without checking.

    I see a lot of tool manufacturers that were established years ago tripping over each other to go offshore and import and sell under their trusted brand names and colors. We have tons of good old US made machinery in Canada and I do see some good US manufacturers like for example Do-all that still make a good product.

    I think it's fair to discuss our experiences. I see a lot of stuff that was made in Canada by General and now I see a lot of stuff from General international and I haven't' been at all impressed with the Taiwanese quality. lots of breakdowns, failed parts. I guess that's job security for me but I'd so much rather support companies that make good quality products.

    I was able to walk into Costco and buy a cheap Chinese flashlight with the "snap on " name on it , the thing didn't last two days. It came in a pack of three and I thought wow! If something had the "snap on" name on it I used to thing it was going to be great but I think in that moment I finally lost faith even in snap on and a host of other companies. I just can't put that trust in name brands any more.

    Word of mouth means a lot when it comes to buying equipment. Ive seen some nice stuff from places like Sweden and Italy but I see a huge amount of knock off machinery from overseas. I think forums like this really do a lot to help people to let others know when they see inferior products and when they are happy with quality. Nowadays we need to look more for those kinds of references since we can't put trust into brand names.

    Ive heard many sales people claim "oh they can make great quality stuff in China" but my experiences haven't shown this.

    I'd definitely be interested in comparing any US manufactured vices. We have tons of old Rockwell international stuff and "Delta" stuff that was great, but it seems like the market conditions just changed so much that due to lack of parts I can't support a lot of this stuff so it needs to be replaced due to spare parts availability. I find that kind of sad because I love old and well made machinery. The unisaws were a great example these were real work horses, now i have one with a broken casting and it goes to scrap. I can repair it, the part is still on the shelves in some places but I can't justify spending over a certain amount on a machine that I can't buy new parts from.

    Some of it I can rebuild or repair or machine the odd broken part to keep it running. we still have some English stuff so old it's whitworth threads. and German made machinery that is very old. If it screams quality so Ill go to more effort to make my own replacement parts when they aren't available.

    at home I do lots of types of restoration work and often will put a huge effort to preserve some old item that I have a love for but in industry economics have to factor into these decisions rather than the "labor of love" I can and do express that more on my own time.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Kyabram. Vic
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    632

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    Phil,

    Do you have pattern-making and foundry courses? If so; some practical applications to make new castings may be of interest. Final machining could be done in the metalworking classes.

    Even producing vises etc for sale/use at other institutions.

    Ken

  9. #9
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    Sep 2016
    Location
    vancouver BC Canada
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    I can't just get the students making parts as they do have a curriculum to adhere to and it's not my job to influence that.

  10. #10
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    Jan 2004
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    Mackay North Qld
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    Surely it is not too difficult to pick up the phone or email these companies and simply ask them are their vices 100% American made.
    Certainly the advertising on their sites indicates that that some of them still are.

    ALternately there must be a number of industrial supply companies who would be falling over themselves to be able to sell you good quality vices in the class set numbers you obviously require.
    Grainger and McMaster- Carr come to mind.

    Give them your specs and let them sort it out


    Wilton
    Columbian
    Rigid
    are a few of many

    Grahame

  11. #11
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    Oct 2007
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    Sydney
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    Grahame, with all due respect that's not the way those companies work. You don't ring them up and tell them to sort your problems out, you ring them up (or more likely enter the number online) with your order, and someone in a shipping department puts that order in a box. Unless it's to Australia (or I believe maybe even Canada), and then they won't.

    I have an Irwin Record vice and, unless they're a lot worse now, honestly don't see what the issue is. I also have a Record woodworking vice, made in UK. Both are fine. It's a casting with a screw shoved through it, not much to go wrong there! I've replaced the jaws in the metalworking vice with soft jaws, otherwise it's as I bought it almost 10 years ago. Since then it's copped all the usual treatment and, other than the crappy label falling off, looks as good as it did the day it was bought. A vice is not a precision instrument, and as much as I recall the days where I was one of the most notoriously creative students in terms of "repurposing" my school's equipment, I can't see how shipping vices out to Canada from Australia is going to lead to more a reliable outcome than simply going with the flow.

    Finally, just because something is claimed to be made in a certain country, doesn't guarantee its quality. In other countries the rules for "made in xxxx" aren't as strict as we enjoy here in Australia, and it can mean anything from simply being designed in that country (if it's considered the company's primary place of business, yes believe it or not!), to packaged, to fully scratch made and everything in between. I've also seen no shortage of atrocious crap that's made in Australia, the US, and yes even Canada. As much as I really appreciate quality, I can't help but feel this money could better go in to more constructive areas.

  12. #12
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    Mackay North Qld
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    Pete, fair enough comment,
    But I do wonder what is point in asking we Aussies"
    Surely the people on the engineering and mechanical forums and boards on the North American continent should have a better idea than we Aussies who are far less likely to encounter American and other "good quality vices"
    Crikey! some collect and restore old vices.
    If any could, I would suppose they would be the folks who collect and refurbish these vices and will have an a very good idea of what is quality and where it is made.
    Would perhaps a similar question on Shop Floor Talk or similar forums would yield better results ?

  13. #13
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    Pete + Grahame
    I think the issue is that Phil has tried the latest versions of some of these names (Record, Irwin and so on) and has found the quality & robustness has declined from what it used to be. Too often when a company makes a 'strategic' decision to source their branded product from other countries based on price, those making the decision at board level assume that the quality level will be the same (just like getting aircraft maintained overseas right?). That is hardly ever the case and while there may be good quality stuff made eventually I can say from personal experience that it takes a lot of effort that management are not prepared to publicly admit to. To make things worse, typically once in country manufacture is shut down, too late we discover that it will cost too much to replace all those perfectly adequate machines that were sold off at scrap value 'because they were not needed'.

    I've seen it happen several times - a company outsources production because of cost and the first thing that happens is a lower quality product arrives - cheaper materials, reduced amounts of them, (important) tolerances relaxed to save assembly time, cheap tooling so parts have more flash on them, less brain used when assembling. The list goes on. We talk about 'old' Sidchrome and 'new' Sidchrome tools for precisely that reason

    I have several Dawn vices and am glad production has not been sent overseas. They are solid units and I hope that they are what Phil is looking for. I also hope that Dawn gets the message and starts looking at export as a way to grow. This idea that Australia is just a farm with a quarry attached and can buy whatever else is needed from other countries is ridiculous and one that Australia will regret one day.



    Michael

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Melbourne Australia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grahame Collins View Post
    Give them your specs and let them sort it out
    Wilton
    Columbian
    Rigid
    Grahame
    Some prick stole my 5/16" / 8mm hydraulic tube bender. So I needed to replace it. Rigid = Ridge Tools Ohio USA.

    Still paid about $148 bucks for it and the box said made in China.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael G View Post
    I have several Dawn vices and am glad production has not been sent overseas.
    I wouldn't be so sure of that. I get invited there occasionally, I try not to do blacksmith tools. We have the other Phil for that.
    They have stuff all production left. Its mostly staffed by Indian's, to do the importation.

    Case in point. www.dawntools.comsponcer.au/general-engineering. Scroll down to see the machining centre. That must have been pictures of when the machine was new. Circa 1985. Hitachi Seiki has been gone for 15 years. 2002.

    That's how I slip in the back door / tradesmans enterence.

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