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  1. #1
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    Default Schaublin's Universal Vice, the No.36.

    A while back I commented on the very neat Riken centring vice Glen " BrianLara400" had been using while making parts for his Ross rifle - http://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...61#post1823561. Michael G remembered the vice and my comment when, while visiting a second hand tool seller's shop, he saw a vaguely similar vice. The vice wasn't centring like the Riken but it was rounded in a similar fashion. The vice rotated on both the vertical and horizontal axis. It had no maker's markings.

    Michael sent me an email asking if I was interested. I knew of two vices that rotated on two axes, one being an American vice but it wasn't rounded off like the Riken. The other was Schaublin's rarer than rare universal vice, the No. 36. I forwarded Michael an image from the 1961 Schaublin 13 catalogue and at the same time Michael sent me a photo from Tony Griffiths' Lathes site. The vice in the shop was the 36. Michael purchased it for me the following morning.

    I had seen photos of a damaged 36 on a Swiss machine forum. The vice has an internal 24 position indexing collar behind the rear jaw. On the damaged vice, about 5 of the indexing holes were torn away. I mentioned my fear of similar damage being concealed within the vice ( the owner of the damaged vice replaced the entire indexing collar ) so Michael dismantled the vice. There was no damage and very little evidence of wear. The large domed end cap locks the slide in the barrel and prevents rotation. To have destroyed the indexing collar a catastrophic crash must have occurred. Schaublin provided the same vice as an accessory for the much larger and more powerful 53 mill though I'm sure the 13's 2 horsepower would be capable enough of ruining a vice or two.

    The handle is a lookalike " knocked " up by Michael. It is better than the original which appears to be a pressed up affair.

    The question some might ask is why a accessory such as this would end up in a second hand shop in Adelaide. I reckon it's a refugee from the Weapons Research Establishment at Salisbury. Might have even been fitted to my mill at some stage, who would know?

    What I do know is, thanks to Michael's limitless generosity, I now have a vice that previously I never even bothered to dream about owning, the chances of ownership being pretty close to zero.

    Thank you Michael.

    BT

    PS. I will post Michael's photos of his dissection later.
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  2. #2
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    For those wondering, this is the photo from Tony's site and shows the use that those vertical T slots are put to.
    SUV.jpg

    The handle was just something I made up because using a 12mm open ender on the square shaft got tired really quickly. In hindsight I think it is too short but I can't convince Bob that he needs to make another one...

    I feel Bob is being overly lavish in his praise though - my part was limited to spotting it* and sending it his way. He did pay all costs and sweat on the delivery. Others would do the same if in a similar situation I'm sure (and as others have done for me).

    *Describing the location as a secondhand tool shop while technically correct is drawing a long bow - for those that know it, it was Machinery Warehouse, which is more of yard where secondhand goods are scattered by type (mostly under cover).

    Michael

  3. #3
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    Default

    great looking vice. The spanner in the 10th pic looks good, I've never seen one like it. Is it a special spanner for the schaublin or did you pick it up somewhere else?

  4. #4
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    Default Congratulations

    Congratulations BT,

    What a terrific find and great team work from Michael

    When Gary S gave me a tour of his Schaublin 13 he spoke very highly of this vice and its ability to be indexed quickly and easily.

    Looking forward to seeing it used in future projects.

    Cheers

    Piers

  5. #5
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    Damn Michael, you answered my question

    Well other than "when you going to make a new jaw Bob?"

    Amazing find Michael!

    Whats the jaw length? 75mm? (managed to come up with another question )

    Stuart

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stustoys View Post
    Whats the jaw length?
    From memory 86mm, 35mm high. The vice only opens (or would with a second jaw) to around 63mm

    Michael

  7. #7
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    Ueee is offline Blacksmith, Cabinetmaker, Machinist, Messmaker
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    Default

    So big enough to use up most of the 13 envelope......looks like it chews up some precious z too.
    Nicely spotted Michael, you must be a very happy man BT.

    Just needs a clean and a coat of resada!
    1915 17"x50" LeBlond heavy duty Lathe, 24" Queen city shaper, 1970's G Vernier FV.3.TO Universal Mill, 1958 Blohm HFS 6 surface grinder, 1942 Rivett 715 Lathe, 14"x40" Antrac Lathe, Startrite H225 Bandsaw, 1949 Hercus Camelback Drill press, 1947 Holbrook C10 Lathe.

  8. #8
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    That's what I love about this forum, members are always willing to help one another. You were lucky to find that in there Michael, every time I went there you just about had to walk sideways down the various aisles, stuff stacked on top of everything. Has he had a major clean up, mind you that was about 10 years since I was there last.
    Kryn

  9. #9
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    A few responses then Michael's inner workings photos...

    Snap,

    The spanner, a swap meet find from long ago, just happened to fit but not as well as it should. The jaws tends to slide out of the locking ring's grooves. Schaublin did supply a C spanner with the vice. It was described as being 80/98mm in size. I haven't yet measured the ring to make sense of the double sizing.

    Piers,

    I knew Gary had a pair of universal dividing heads when he still had the two 13s but I didn't know he had the vice. I'll be sending him a message or two. Thanks for that.

    Ew,

    Grey not Green. And you are right about the vice devouring space. The vice itself is nearly the 13's work envelope!

    My plans are to make a new pair of soft jaws, repair the indexing pin ( it falls out ), perform some restorative dentistry on the broken off corner of the tee slot and repaint the vice. I will also make a stop as illustrated in Michael's Lathes image.

    Michael suggests his handle may be too short. It's not. The handle can be swung a full revolution with the vice positioned anywhere on the table. Not so with my other vices which require the handles to be removed and replaced.

    So... here's Michael's typically thorough description of the vice's workings and accompanying photos - ( the numbers are of the photos )

    G'day Bob


    I've just got back inside from a quick strip down. Despite the outside appearance, the inside of this vice looks near new. The difficulties I had moving it were due to lack of lubrication, gunk and 1 missing part. I've included some photos but they are not very good although illustrate the points.


    As you can see from 857, the main bore still has the hone marks in it.The fit was that tight that it was not until the fixed jaw tube was 3/4 of the way in did it want to slide without gentle tapping. The 24 positioning holes (858) are all intact. No cracks that I could see. Once the rear jaw tube is slid in, it is secured with a tabbed spacer and a nut with 5 notches for a C spanner. The moving jaw slides in to this tube. There is a key inside the fixed jaw tube that stops the two rotating relative to each other and oil grooves everywhere. Everything seems matched. In this case there is "803" etched into things.

    The vice screw has a nominal 12mm square on the end (11.95mm) and is 18mm long. Screw pitch is 2mm. As you can see from 861 and 860, there is an assembly with a needle roller bearing. The needle roller is on the screw side of the flange along with a collar. The collar is retained with a taper pin (missing) so I've substituted in a roll pin for the moment (small side hole is 3.04, large size is 3.48, 22mm long). Given it is a metric device I'd suggest a metric taper pin. I have some imperial pins if you want to try your luck - over the length it is a difference of 0.02mm

    With the bearing assembled on the screw, this is then passed through the domed end piece (862). The end piece just screws into the end of the fixed jaw tube (4mm pin spanner). The screw is retained in the domed end piece with a nut (note! LH thread) - 3mm pin spanner. That's it really.

    Opening is around 60 to 62mm and the jaws look to be hardened - a file is only just skating across. Blank size for the jaws is 86x36x12. The rebate takes the jaw thickness down to 10mm. (863)

    Once assembled with oil and the roll pin in place, the action is smooth as. No shake or wobble. I'd rate this as one of those accessories that was rarely used and the battered paintwork was mainly because it sat in a drawer or cupboard and was pushed around.

    Michael
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  10. #10
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    (I really do need to work on better photos. The quality is abysmal, especially compared to Bob's earlier efforts.)

    The spanner size is given as 80/98 as typically that is the range that the (fixed) C spanner that was supplied will cover before needing the next size up or down. Catalogue page illustrating another maker's size progressions attached (prices in US$ btw)
    Cspanner (Medium).jpg

    Michael

  11. #11
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    Brilliant find Michael, a Schaublin accessory made from weapons grade unobtanium.

    I recall a conversation with a guy in Adelaide some time back where he talked about 2 Schaublin 13's that were auctioned off from some defense research facility, and the accessories were sold in a separate lot. I wonder if this is one from that lot.. I'd go back to the same place and carefully sift through the boxes and shelves, there might be more gems awaiting discovery..

    Ray

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post
    Brilliant find Michael, a Schaublin accessory made from weapons grade unobtanium.

    I recall a conversation with a guy in Adelaide some time back where he talked about 2 Schaublin 13's that were auctioned off from some defense research facility, and the accessories were sold in a separate lot. I wonder if this is one from that lot.. I'd go back to the same place and carefully sift through the boxes and shelves, there might be more gems awaiting discovery..

    Ray
    Some time back, probably 2009, my 13 was one of a pair that was auctioned off from the Aeronautical Research Laboratories at the WRE. When I acquired mine in 2010, it was accompanied by a crate of accessories. I'm wondering if it was that same auction Ray?

    I'll send Michael a copy of the 1961 catalogue Phillip "Metalman" sent to me so that he can be on the lookout. A universal dividing head would sure be nice.

    BT

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anorak Bob View Post
    Some time back, probably 2009, my 13 was one of a pair that was auctioned off from the Aeronautical Research Laboratories at the WRE. When I acquired mine in 2010, it was accompanied by a crate of accessories. I'm wondering if it was that same auction Ray?

    I'll send Michael a copy of the 1961 catalogue Phillip "Metalman" sent to me so that he can be on the lookout. A universal dividing head would sure be nice.

    BT
    The timeline is about right, so it's possible it's the same auction. Can't imagine there would be too many auctions where they sold 2x Schaublin 13's

    On a slightly different topic, I found a really beat-up Brown & Sharpe MFG. Co. catalog, ( dog eared, covers missing, several pages from front and back missing ) it's only small ( 4" x 6" approx ) but runs to 370+ pages, covers a pretty comprehensive range of B&S metrology gear, it's yours if you want it.

    Ray

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post
    The timeline is about right, so it's possible it's the same auction. Can't imagine there would be too many auctions where they sold 2x Schaublin 13's

    On a slightly different topic, I found a really beat-up Brown & Sharpe MFG. Co. catalog, ( dog eared, covers missing, several pages from front and back missing ) it's only small ( 4" x 6" approx ) but runs to 370+ pages, covers a pretty comprehensive range of B&S metrology gear, it's yours if you want it.

    Ray
    Thank you Ray, I'm happy to take a punt on the catalogue not being one I already possess. - http://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...65#post1590665

    Given that auctioneers are often more than happy to sell off accessories as orphans when they should accompany a specific machine, I would appear to be more than lucky. Even luckier that I was given the crate of gear when I bought the mill.

    Bob.

  15. #15
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    Default So much for well made plans.

    I had intended painting some of the verandah posts this afternoon but the lure of the vice was too great. Tomorrow instead.

    Michael had told me that there was a problem with the indexing plunger, its little travel stop had been sheared off. The plunger guide was fortunately removable and the broken stop was still insitu. Cleaning the broken off portion revealed a screwdriver slot. I had fears that the remainder of the stop would be hardened and a problem to remove but a Dremel mounted bur easily produced a hole that enabled the stop to be unscrewed with a small cross head screwdriver.

    The stop is 4.5mm long and threaded M3. I made a replacement using 4140. I had a .016" slitting saw that worked perfectly, The scope was used to confirm the point of blade contact. All worked without the usual glitch or three.

    The dentistry is something I will discuss before I put cutter to cast.

    BT
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