Thread: Hulse planer

So the time has come to start work on getting the planer up and going after a lot of delay. Have been busy working on the bulldog tractor so I can get it going again and move it out of the shed to make room for some other machines. As well as moving and storing the DSG lathe/CVA lathe/Schaublin lathe/ Mitsui Seiki jig borer/Power surface grinder etc but that all a story for another day.
The first phase with the planer has been to remove the table and consider how to bolt it down and level it up. No easy feat when the table weighs around 1500kg and is 13ft x 3 ft (sorry about the mixed imperial/metric speak). Interested in what everyone thinks about the levelling/bolt down options. The planer sits on a 200cm double reinforced section of concrete in the shed. At the moment the plan is to bolt down with long dynabolts ( 8 of them) with shims to level.
Have attached some photos of removing the table. Will add things as we go




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Big job Mark. Will watch with interest.

Do you already have the slab?
If you do,are there 3feet?
Are you going to clamp to the feet or are there hold down holes?t
If you are going to clamp onto the existing feet are you also going to place stop blocks at the front and rear of the feet?
If there are hold down holes and you haven't yet got the slab have you considered using threaded rod or long bolts to hold it down?
Have you considered using chemisets rather than loxins?

Originally Posted by pipeclay

Do you already have the slab?
If you do,are there 3feet?
Are you going to clamp to the feet or are there hold down holes?t
If you are going to clamp onto the existing feet are you also going to place stop blocks at the front and rear of the feet?
If there are hold down holes and you haven't yet got the slab have you considered using threaded rod or long bolts to hold it down?
Have you considered using chemists rather than logins?

Hi Pipeclay thanks for your reply
There are 4 'legs' on the planer 3 have 2 bolt down holes while the end stand has 3 holes. I did consider using Loxtons with threaded rod and levelling nuts but given the significant side way forces as the table reverses I thought it better to have the table securely bolted down. To put in Dynabolts this will mean accurately marking the holes then moving the whole table as it is not possible to drill the required holes in the slab with the planer in place. Then the planer will need to be moved back into place, the dynabolts inserted and shims used to level the planer. Not an altogether easy job. Levelling the planer will have its own issues and I will have to make up some precision cylinders to sit in the large V ways and measure off these. Some respondants on PM suggested plugging the ends of the V ways then filling them with liquid and using a depth mike to measure the top of the fluid but I will need a reference surface for this.
I am still considering all this as I clean a century of muck off the planer. Under the table were the biggest chips I have ever seen!
Will try to get some more photos once it is clean and show the situation more clearly

G'day Mark, I'm looking forward to reading how you go on this. I'm especially looking forward to seeing some of the other kit come out of storage, especially the boss's ex-machine, you lucky bugger!

I've got bugger all to offer I'm afraid, machines this size are a world I've only seen from afar. However if it were me I'd chemset the anchors and not dynabolt. Drill for oil and set them good.

Originally Posted by markgray

Hi Pipeclay thanks for your reply
There are 4 'legs' on the planer 3 have 2 bolt down holes while the end stand has 3 holes. I did consider using Loxtons with threaded rod and levelling nuts but given the significant side way forces as the table reverses I thought it better to have the table securely bolted down. To put in Dynabolts this will mean accurately marking the holes then moving the whole table as it is not possible to drill the required holes in the slab with the planer in place. Then the planer will need to be moved back into place, the dynabolts inserted and shims used to level the planer. Not an altogether easy job. Levelling the planer will have its own issues and I will have to make up some precision cylinders to sit in the large V ways and measure off these. Some respondants on PM suggested plugging the ends of the V ways then filling them with liquid and using a depth mike to measure the top of the fluid but I will need a reference surface for this.
I am still considering all this as I clean a century of muck off the planer. Under the table were the biggest chips I have ever seen!
Will try to get some more photos once it is clean and show the situation more clearly

Mark,

I can ring the structural engineer, Arthur Dimitriou at Powers Fasteners over here to ask him what he would consider the most appropriate fixing for your application.

An internally threaded loxin type expansive anchor would be considerably less expensive than a similar size internally threaded sleeve type chemical anchor. The one advantage, mechanically, that the chem anchor might have is its length of embedment in the concrete. ( For example, a Hilti HIS M16 chemical anchor sleeve is 170mm in length. ) Internally threaded anchors, whether expansive or chemical, with a separate bolt would be a hell of a lot easier to use than something that requires wriggling though the planer's feet and into a hole you can't see.

Bob.

edit. Pete's younger, nimbler fingers beat me to the draw. I've just expanded on his comments.

Hi Bob,

If your friend didn't mind giving an opinion I would love to hear what he thinks. There is no doubt a threaded rod or similiar whether held by an expandable loxton or chemset type would make leveling now and in the future easier. Would I need to grout under the legs or is it Ok to have it sitting elevated off the concrete with the levelling nuts under the legs?

Grateful for any opinions.

Pete F
The Jig borer is safely stored in a shed at the moment waiting for me to build a precision measuring room in the next couple of years. It had a very dramatic and traumatic journey from Qantas to western NSW. It suffered some damage on unloading and I have had to remove a section for repair. It is still a little raw to discuss but I am taking plenty of photos and the full story will be told later. Don't worry as all the damage is repairable and the machine will function fine. The quality of the tooling that came with this machine is astonishing.
A lession learnt in terms of employing a transport company to move a precision machine. Machtool's efforts to pack and send his CNC lathe is a lession in how it should be done!

Cheers Mark

Oh that's terrible news Mark, and I'll be interested in hearing the full story, gory as it may be. I feel you pain, I think pretty much any time a machine is moved, it's almost inevitable that there'll be something damaged. Sometimes it's major, sometimes it's minor, but it always seems like there's something.

Yes I saw the tooling cabinets don't worry about that! like I said, you lucky bugger!!!

Seeing that you already have the slab you are a little limited to methods of hold down.

I would go with either the largest dyna bolt loxin etc that will fit through your hold down holes.

I would then place 20 to 35 mm square or rectangular plates that fit under the planner feet.

I would use shims to level and then after levelling box up around the feet and pour grout.

If you are looking for .0005"/ft shims would be good enough.

Hello Mark,

I just spoke with Arthur. He recommended a Powers PSA anchor which is vibration resistant - http://www.powers.com.au/mechanical/...t.aspx?ID=1364 .. but there's a but.

The issue you might have is the thickness of the planer's foot. The bolt projection of a PSA M16 anchor is only 27mm. These fixings are removable. If the PSA anchor won't work due to the foot thickness Arthur suggested a chemical anchor would be the best option. He recommended Powers PURE 150 PRO epoxy - http://www.powers.com.au/adhesives/product.aspx?ID=1407 ( $50 cartridge, $80 applicator ). One cartridge might just do 6 holes. This would be used with a threaded stud. There is no need to purchase standard Powers studs. Allthread cut to length would be the best option. Powers do not offer socket type internally threaded chemical anchors. The planer would need to be lowered onto the studs.

Hilti supply internally threaded chemical anchors, have a look at page 71 of this PDF - https://www.hilti.com.au/medias/sys_...al+Anchors.pdf The holes would be drilled, the sockets installed, the machine positioned over the holes, bolts installed, the machine leveled then bolted down and grouted. Easy .

Hilti's epoxy and applicator are probably more expensive than Powers.

Here's also some information pertaining to machine base grouting - http://www.parchem.com.au/public/pdf...oxy-Grouts.pdf

I hope this is of some assistance.

Bob.

Hi Mark,

Watching with interest, I can see the logic in levelling off the V ways.. once you have those level, you have a reference to follow.

Should I pack up the laser and head north?

Ray

G'day Mark,
That's a heavy duty looking piece of machinery, very nice.

Ideally a pre-fabricated steel framework made with all the required bolts in the correct positions which is then set into the foundation as an assembly when it's poured might have been the best option, unfortunately it sounds like that horse has bolted on this occasion (no pun intended).

Rather than relying on two or three large masonry anchor bolts at each mounting point might it be an option to fabricate a plate say 16mm thick by 300mm square with eight anchor points around the edge and two or three lengths of all-thread (as required for the mounting) of the required diameter welded in the centre such that they protrude up enough to anchor and level the table and down say 300mm into your slab which could be grouted in. This would spread the shear loading across a larger number of fasteners and a larger area of the slab.

You could make a couple thin dummy plates without the thread protruding down to facilitate accurate drilling of the holes.

Watching with interest and looking forward to seeing some chips.

Cheers,
Greg.

Greg, genuine question, do you think there would be much sheer in this application? The reason for my previous comment were my thoughts would be to couple it to the slab as best as is possible under the circumstances, and to do so use a long stud and try to torque the stud up nice and tight. Basically to try to reduce the amount of flexing as anything. It's the reason I wouldn't use a friction anchors (ie Dynabolt). I've had the latter pull when torqued up hard. Also I would be concerned about vibration affecting friction anchors.

Bob is the king of this area, and I'd take the advice given very seriously. However I looked in to chemical setting a couple of years back and was appalled at the prices being asked, then to add salt to the wound, many companies here in Australia will come up with expensive proprietary dispensers to lock you in to their ripoff product.* At the end of the day it's just epoxy resin, albeit some with different properties to others. From what I could see a properly prepared hole and a decent length of stainless stud will not pull out. EVER! I'd personally be reluctant to pay a significant premium for a fancy brand of chemical anchor over and above a decent brand like Ramset etc available form hardware stores. Some chemical anchors are also available in standard cartridges, just the way all should be!

* In contrast to the rort here, I was paying around A$12 per cartridge for chemical anchor purchased in Singapore as manufactured by a respectable company. They also fitted standard cartridge guns. Another ripoff bought to you by Australian companies stitching up the local market.

G'day Pete,
Probably not shear loading as such but I have seen this method used for mounting largish stationary engines where it was not possible to go with a cast in framework.

I'm no civil engineer but I believe the theory in this method is to to spread the effects of shear loading, vibration, shock loading or what ever over a larger number of fasteners and a larger area of a slab of unverified quality in order to reduce the effects of an individual failure.

As you say in the case of Mark's planer, shear or shock loading is probably not such a big factor but vibration might be an issue over time.
With a planer the effects of failure will be less catastrophic than with an engine but if you spend a lot of effort in levelling and aligning a machine such as this one you really want it to hold true so a bit of over-engineering might be worth it in the long term.
Cheers,
Greg.

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

Hello Mark,

I just spoke with Arthur. He recommended a Powers PSA anchor which is vibration resistant - http://www.powers.com.au/mechanical/...t.aspx?ID=1364 .. but there's a but.

The issue you might have is the thickness of the planer's foot. The bolt projection of a PSA M16 anchor is only 27mm. These fixings are removable. If the PSA anchor won't work due to the foot thickness Arthur suggested a chemical anchor would be the best option. He recommended Powers PURE 150 PRO epoxy - http://www.powers.com.au/adhesives/product.aspx?ID=1407 ( $50 cartridge, $80 applicator ). One cartridge might just do 6 holes. This would be used with a threaded stud. There is no need to purchase standard Powers studs. Allthread cut to length would be the best option. Powers do not offer socket type internally threaded chemical anchors. The planer would need to be lowered onto the studs.

Hilti supply internally threaded chemical anchors, have a look at page 71 of this PDF - https://www.hilti.com.au/medias/sys_...al+Anchors.pdf The holes would be drilled, the sockets installed, the machine positioned over the holes, bolts installed, the machine leveled then bolted down and grouted. Easy .

Hilti's epoxy and applicator are probably more expensive than Powers.

Here's also some information pertaining to machine base grouting - http://www.parchem.com.au/public/pdf...oxy-Grouts.pdf

I hope this is of some assistance.

Bob.

Thanks for all that Bob. Its amazing how levelling and bolting down a machine can become so complicated so quickly!