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  1. #61
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    No it is not up to consumers to determine whether an electrical product is safe, it is up to the importer to prove it is safe before it can be legally sold.

  2. #62
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Today I was on my way to the hardware for a couple of 240V 3 pin plugs to make up cords to attach to some small machinery we have been repairing for the mens shed and happened to drive through a suburb having it's hard rubbish collection. At one spot on the verge there was a Sharp microwave oven, a Whirlpool washing machine and a large Sunbeam oil filled heater. 3 seconds with a pair of side cutters and my shopping was done.

    The stuff we fix gets put aside and then a sparky comes in every now and then and supposedly tests and then tags them. He's never turned down anything we've fixed and even tagged items that we told him not to test including one with it's switch gear wiring hanging out all over the place. I also always now recheck everything after he's done because once he reattached a 3P motor the wrong way.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete F View Post
    No it is not up to consumers to determine whether an electrical product is safe, it is up to the importer to prove it is safe before it can be legally sold.
    Wold that not be nice. But we live in 2014.

    If a consumer buys any electrical appliance direct from overseas, then obviously the consumer IS the importer. It is a great thing being able to buy directly from just about any country, but with the privilege also comes responsibility.

    That is not the only case where the consumer takes on some or all responsibility to ensure safety. If the consumer chooses to buy a lowest cost (usually Chinese) mill or a lathe from a small Australian dealer, from which it is obvious that no safety testing or approval whatsoever is being done, then it is again in the consumer's very own interest to inspect and make sure the product is indeed safe to use here.

  4. #64
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    I tried importing an overseas gas appliance once but stopped when I was told that it was illegal to use non-approved appliances. Similarly I believe that you are not allowed to connect non-approved phones to the Australian telephone network. I can't comment on electrical appliances but can't see why it would be different.
    While a consumer can act as an importer and chose to use what they import the key thing is that if something goes wrong that results in (death or) injury of people or damage to property, insurance companies won't want to know you and there are probably penalties that regulators can impose on you too.
    The difference may not be much. I worked for a company at once who imported small synchronous pumps for their products from China. At one stage a Chinese knock off started appearing so we got a couple and tested them. There is a thing called a locked rotor test, where the rotor is immobilsed and power supplied. From memory it is meant to withstand 14 days continuous of that without any problems. The original pumps could but the knock offs caught fire. The pumps did not look all that different - the finish standard did not look as good on the knock off but only if you were comparing side by side. If you'd bought one of these and used it, a fault developed and your house burnt down you would be feeling very alone because while no one is actively stopping you buying or using these products there are penalties if things go wrong.

    Getting back to the plugs in question, it does not matter that they have been approved for use overseas - without Australian certification or certification that is recognised as equivalent in Australia, you are at risk if something goes wrong. Even if it carries something like a UL mark it does not mean that everything about them is approved for Australian use. UL is a commercial organisation and will test for things like flammability but not necessarily for things that we may encounter or legislate for in Australia. Another employer had a "standard finger" because one of the standards* required no gaps in the product guarding that a finger could enter. UL certification probably doesn't cover that.

    Would I use a directly imported VFD? Yes, but not for things where it will be unattended for long periods of time. I would also be careful when connecting it up to make sure that there are not live bits on it that may give me a jolt. Would I use overseas plugs? Possibly, but I'd want to know where they came from and who has approved them (I'll trust UK approval for example but not necessarily some African nations...).

    The problem with the argument that the consumer needs to ensure that a product is safe is that the consumer may not be knowledgeable in all the standards that a product must meet or indeed have the knowledge to be able to do that testing in a safe and comprehensive manner.

    Michael

    *One way of protecting your market is to be on the standards committee and make the regulatory standards for entry into the market very high while co-incidentally having a product that just happens to meet those standards for historic reasons.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by cba_melbourne View Post
    Wold that not be nice. But we live in 2014.

    If a consumer buys any electrical appliance direct from overseas, then obviously the consumer IS the importer. It is a great thing being able to buy directly from just about any country, but with the privilege also comes responsibility.

    That is not the only case where the consumer takes on some or all responsibility to ensure safety. If the consumer chooses to buy a lowest cost (usually Chinese) mill or a lathe from a small Australian dealer, from which it is obvious that no safety testing or approval whatsoever is being done, then it is again in the consumer's very own interest to inspect and make sure the product is indeed safe to use here.
    No it is not up to consumers to determine whether an electrical product is safe, it is up to the importer to prove it is safe before it can be legally sold.
    I didn't think this was difficult to understand.

    Unlike yourself Chris, not everyone knows everything about every subject known to mankind. It's for this reason that we have strict standards in this country so as to protect innocent people who don't pretend to know everything from products that may appear sound, but as Michael quite correctly pointed out, are in fact fundamentally flawed.

  6. #66
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    Michael, I really like your example with the seized pump. Everybody can understand that.

    The issue with the connector though I cannot understand. The ones I use are 100% identical to the ones used by Australian makers in their AU approved appliances. Made by highly regarded manufactures (Amphenol and Hirschmann) that also suppliy the armed forces and aerospace industry. With exactly the same approval markings. Bought from reputable Australian importers like RS, Element14 etc. that also supply Australian manufacturers. The only difference in this case is, the manufacturer had paid to have it "individually approved as part of a specifically approved and engeieered item". This means, if I was to use such connector from Element14 to replace a broken connector in the Davey pump, this would be perfectly legal. Yet if I was to add this same connector to another brand name pump of same size and rating, it would be illegal? Nah, that cannot be right.



    Quote Originally Posted by Michael G View Post
    ....The problem with the argument that the consumer needs to ensure that a product is safe is that the consumer may not be knowledgeable in all the standards that a product must meet or indeed have the knowledge to be able to do that testing in a safe and comprehensive manner...
    I agree not everyone can spot subtle differences, and not everybody wants to either. But where this is the case, then the consumer can still make sure that a product is safe, by not importing directly and by only buying product from a reputable local dealer. Essentially, it means the consumer has to pay the higher price to reflect the dealers compliance cost (and the associated profit margin). That is not something new. I recall when I bought a printer 1994 in Melbourne. There were several small computer dealers selling the model I wanted very considerably cheaper. That was so, because they sold a 110V gray import, and supplied it with a step down transformer. Probably not legal, but many consumers like me must have assessed it as safe for home use and felt the cost savings were well worth it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Michael G View Post
    *One way of protecting your market is to be on the standards committee and make the regulatory standards for entry into the market very high while co-incidentally having a product that just happens to meet those standards for historic reasons.
    Not anymore. Standards like AS3000 are essentially copies of the international standard. With country specific variations that mainly affect fixed installations, all these standards look very very similar nowdays. When it comes to appliances, there is very little difference if any.

    Think about it, if there were differences manufacturers would have to make a different model for each country, and have it tested and approved in each country. But as it is, all that changes is often just the power lead that must fit another type of wall outlet, and testing done in one country is recognized by the others. If it was not that way, then standards would indeed be trade barriers.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by cba_melbourne View Post
    Think about it, if there were differences manufacturers would have to make a different model for each country, and have it tested and approved in each country. But as it is, all that changes is often just the power lead that must fit another type of wall outlet, and testing done in one country is recognized by the others. If it was not that way, then standards would indeed be trade barriers.
    Where do you get this stuff from? Manufacturers DO need to have products tested for compliance in various countries. Only yesterday I met with a manufacturer and we discussed this very issue and C E certification and cost.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete F View Post
    Where do you get this stuff from? Manufacturers DO need to have products tested for compliance in various countries. Only yesterday I met with a manufacturer and we discussed this very issue and C E certification and cost.
    Manufacturers do not "need to have products tested for compliance in various countries".

    In the case of the CE mark, manufacturers need to certify that their product conforms to EC regulations. In the case of products made to Australian standards, this is usually the case since the standards have been harmonized, and testing regimes are mutually recognized. Except for particularly sensitive products, a separate testing is not necessary. CE marking is a self certification scheme.

    Edit: some good info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking
    Edit2: pay particular attention to what they say about the Chinese CE mark, which looks almost identical to the read CE mark. The Chinese CE mark stands for "Chinese Export" and one can argue it is designed to trick consumers.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete F View Post
    Only yesterday I met with a manufacturer and we discussed this very issue and C E certification and cost.
    Do you mean C-tick or CE? If you meant C-tick, you can do it yourself, by maintaining a design file, and just declaring the device to be compliant... ( C-tick is just EMC of course )


    As far as importing non-compliant products into Australia, it's happening all the time, though ebay and other on-line sources, and it's a regulatory nightmare, at least if you have a company that's reselling the non-compliant product you have someone to go after, but it's mostly individuals that just buy one-off's and there have already been cases where people have died..

    I've already said in this thread, I don't see anything wrong with what Chris is doing with the VFD plugs, it's better than what all the CNC router guys are using..

    If standards compliance is of any concern, then the starting point should be the relevant standard.. I think AS 61010.1—2003 see Section 6 on plugs and equipment interconnects..

    Ray

  10. #70
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    Why is it so important for manufacturers that electrical testing is recognized between countries?

    About 20Y ago I took on the job of obtaining TGA registration for an US made device to be used in operating theaters. It was a device to inject a contrast medium into a patient. There were less than 10 such particular devices in existance worlwide, and this was only about a one off registration to demonstrate the device. I recall that the electrial compliance was actually one of the easiest and fastest single steps. Once I submitted to TGA the complete UL labs test report, this was accepted, as it was covered by a then new treaty for mutual recognition of electrical safety testing between the US and Australia.

    Would it have been necessary to do a separate electrical safety test in Australia, we would never have been able to even consider selling this $200K device here. The teesting regime requires to subject the device to very high voltages, and several days in a climate chamber at elevated temperatures and humidity. The US manufacturer told me that the prototype submitted to test in the US was reduced to worthless junk after UL test regime. Even the foil keyboard was ruined after they checked how often a button can be operated. The cost of the electrical testing was actually more the loss of the supplied sample, rather than the fees for the lab. Imagine every country had to repeat such test, at $200K plus a shot.

  11. #71
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    I mean what I wrote. C E.

    Chris this is an excellent example of not writing about things you clearly know nothing about. Just as an example, the C E certification costs nothing like the $200K you speak of with such great authority. I discussed the specific process with a small electronics manufacturer at quite some length not even 18 hours ago. However as you're clearly an expert in this topic too, I'll leave you to it

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete F View Post
    I mean what I wrote. C E.

    Chris this is an excellent example of not writing about things you clearly know nothing about. Just as an example, the C E certification costs nothing like the $200K you speak of with such great authority. I discussed the specific process with a small electronics manufacturer at quite some length not even 18 hours ago. However as you're clearly an expert in this topic too, I'll leave you to it
    CE has nothing to do with the example I provided. I do not claim to be expert at electric Standards (that is a full time job in its own right), but I do occasionally have to work with them and actually do have a paid subscription of AS3000 on the computer I write this. I wonder if you could supply an example of your own involvement with electrical safety standards? It would most certainly add considerable weight to your comments.

  13. #73
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    Chris I couldn't give a toot about your constant pi$$ing contests on this forum, and I'm certainly in no mood for it right now, hence I bow to your superior knowledge on ... well, pretty much anything, apparently However for your information this was my trade mate! My father was also a lecturer in the field so it's something I've grown up with since, literally, the day I was born. Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't be so arrogant as to think I should tell an accountant how to suck eggs with regard double entry book keeping!

    As I said, I'm out, please do not address further comments to myself.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ueee View Post
    I lied.....its wired in double star. Still correct for 220v hookup though!

    Ew

    Tested the motor on someone else's VFD yesterday an it ran fine…..Now I just have to buy a suitable VFD and clear out the other projects so I can get back to the belt grinder build.

    Thanks
    …..Live a Quiet Life & Work with your Hands

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