Thread: Tailstock alignment tool - a shameless copy

I have been pretending to do some half precise work in my shed. Given this, I needed a way of aligning my tailstock. I was thinking of buying something to do the trick. I do not have a whole lot of time to mess around making tools, yet I find myself constantly doing just that. Tailstock alignment was no different. I found straight forward video from a youtube regular (Ray Caniglia) which had exactly what I needed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utZVv7QvRt8

Having no place to simply purchase one of these I got to work (don't mind the finger in photo #3 - only uploaded to show the slot - 10mm, then 5mm, to take an M5 SHCS). I was happy with the end result.

IMG_3494.jpg IMG_3497.jpg IMG_3496.jpg IMG_3506.jpg

Hi variant. That looks like a neat and simple easy to use setup. Certainly a little more refined than the one tubal cain made! A few members here have expressed their concern about droop with such a setup but yours looks quite rigid. I also seem to spend a lot of time making tool to make more tools!

Simon

Simon, the droop only affects vertical readings and won't affect tailstock offset.

Not wanting to poo-poo anyone's efforts, as it looks like a neat but simple gadget, but what is the advantage over just chucking a dial indicator holder in the 3 jaw? I watched that guy's video and I was completely lost on why he was using pieces of wood to hold his indicator. I used to unscrew the mag base off a cheap indicator holder and use that. Just try to keep everything as close and symmetrical as you can and the effect of gravity can be largely ignored for offset.

Originally Posted by simonl

Hi variant. That looks like a neat and simple easy to use setup. Certainly a little more refined than the one tubal cain made! A few members here have expressed their concern about droop with such a setup but yours looks quite rigid. I also seem to spend a lot of time making tool to make more tools!

Simon

The whole thing certainly feels nice and rigid.

Originally Posted by Pete F

Not wanting to poo-poo anyone's efforts, as it looks like a neat but simple gadget, but what is the advantage over just chucking a dial indicator holder in the 3 jaw? I watched that guy's video and I was completely lost on why he was using pieces of wood to hold his indicator. I used to unscrew the mag base off a cheap indicator holder and use that. Just try to keep everything as close and symmetrical as you can and the effect of gravity can be largely ignored for offset.

No poo-poo at all. It is a good question. I wanted to make use of my back plunge indicator as my others are tied up (such as my spare dial indicator that now lives in a BXA tool holder). My Interapid DTI lives in my TTS holder. My Messener DTI has a tiny stem and dovetail - which do not suit my mag base (no dovetail grip). The other thing is that whilst my mag base reads "Mitutoyo", I have no idea if it actually is. It is not that rigid to be honest - I need a Noga!

At the end of the day, I guess it is a nice "grab from the box" tool. I can see how this could be a real time saver if one liked to offset their tailstock regularly.

As for the wood block.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EZh8SUoA4o

Originally Posted by variant22

The whole thing certainly feels nice and rigid.


No poo-poo at all. It is a good question. I wanted to make use of my back plunge indicator as my others are tied up (such as my spare dial indicator that now lives in a BXA tool holder). My Interapid DTI lives in my TTS holder. My Messener DTI has a tiny stem and dovetail - which do not suit my mag base (no dovetail grip). The other thing is that whilst my mag base reads "Mitutoyo", I have no idea if it actually is. It is not that rigid to be honest - I need a Noga!

At the end of the day, I guess it is a nice "grab from the box" tool. I can see how this could be a real time saver if one liked to offset their tailstock regularly.

As for the wood block.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EZh8SUoA4o

Hi Variant, You got a nice collection of indicators (show off! ). I will get around to making a similar setup…. one day. ATM when I want to turn something parallel between centres (and my TS is not aligned), I make sure I have a bit of meat on the shaft to be turned and keep taking skimming cuts and adjust the TS until I get it parallel. I generally have no idea if and when my TS is aligned, as the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. It would be nice to be able to set it up without having to cut metal though.

WRT Tubal Cain's method, I watched that video about a 2 years ago when I first started watching many of his videos. I find his videos very entertaining, well thought out and very practical. I did however think that he let himself down just a little by using a wooden block in the 3 jaw. Thought he could have come up with a bitter execution of a good idea.

He, like many of his country folk have an extreme dislike for anything Chinese. He makes that quite clear in one of his bandsaw videos. He refers to some makes being made in "some god forsaken country" which I found to be a bit hypocritical/high and mighty from an openly Christian person. Anyway, a bit OT.

The method you used is certainly more refined than his.

Simon

Originally Posted by Pete F

Simon, the droop only affects vertical readings and won't affect tailstock offset.

Yes, now I remember you said that in a previous thread. It makes sense. I tried that method a couples years ago after watching his video. I too put the shaft in the 3 jaw but because it was on the spindle axis, I could not get enough room for the indicator to indicate around the TS barrel. I have a gooseneck now although I have not used it for this, it should work well.

Simon

A small Noga is an excellent investment, and definitely worth the money. Beware of copies, they are NOT the same. A small Noga mag base can just be stuck on the front of a chuck and will hold without any issue. I have one of these also http://www.messzeuge.santool.de/Mess...:18286080.html though I'm sure there would be cheaper alternatives. It is however ideal for this type of thing.

I know some here dismiss indicator droop as being immaterial, and often it is to the tolerances they wish to work to, however it's very real and easily measurable. Somebody can often get away with poor practice, but unless the rationale behind it is fully understood, that practice may one day come back to bite the person. Just for example, using lightweight indicators on rigid setups one can get away with a lot, however that may not be the case simply by swapping out indicators. I have a Compac indicator for example which is a very early model, possibly one of the most beautiful pieces of kit I own when the workmanship is considered. However it's also extremely heavy, to the point that I don't use it because of the weight. Even when doing lateral alignment (such as a tailstock), it's always good practice to try to ensure the setup is symmetrical when sweeping from one side to the other, just to eliminate any potential to be reminded that gravity always wins! Obviously the original holder satisfies that perfectly.

Originally Posted by simonl

Hi Variant, You got a nice collection of indicators (show off! ).

Borne from mostly necessity (or ignorance) on my part. My first one came with a bore gauge. Then I wanted a digital dial indicator to check TDC and camshaft lift on an engine I was building. It now lives on my mag base as my "go-to" dial indicator. So that was #2. The Interapid was a necessary purchase for squaring my vices on my mill. A truly wonderful repeatable indicator. The Messner was too cheap to let go. I have tested it against my Interapid and it is accurate. The Brown and Sharpe was purchased for tramming my milling machine. The back plunger makes tramming quite easy and I do not have to worry about crashing the dainty head on my DTI's. It is a surprisingly (given it is relatively new - not old world B&S) high quality piece of kit. Each indicator has a place and the only one purchased out of curiosity was the Messner, which was only about $10 if I recall correctly. Oh and I forgot to mention the gift from heaven, the Haimer 3D taster - the joy when used with DRO.. setups are fast and completely hassle free (at least when the probe is tight ).

Originally Posted by simonl

I will get around to making a similar setup…. one day. ATM when I want to turn something parallel between centres (and my TS is not aligned), I make sure I have a bit of meat on the shaft to be turned and keep taking skimming cuts and adjust the TS until I get it parallel. I generally have no idea if and when my TS is aligned, as the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. It would be nice to be able to set it up without having to cut metal though.

I use my test bar to check between the centers. I did read (could be garbage) that the pros are regularly adjusting their tailstocks to gain accuracy - essentially doing a live skim cut.

Originally Posted by simonl

He, like many of his country folk have an extreme dislike for anything Chinese. He makes that quite clear in one of his bandsaw videos. He refers to some makes being made in "some god forsaken country" which I found to be a bit hypocritical/high and mighty from an openly Christian person.

I like Tubal Cain (mrpete22). I always have a laugh at his comments. Usually center around the young female staff at various hardware stores. The blank looks and get out attitude when asking for seemingly normal things (but becoming increasingly rare these days). I think of him as from a bygone era. A lot of old timers are exactly like him - thoroughly entertaining.

Originally Posted by Pete F

A small Noga is an excellent investment, and definitely worth the money. Beware of copies, they are NOT the same. A small Noga mag base can just be stuck on the front of a chuck and will hold without any issue. I have one of these also http://www.messzeuge.santool.de/Mess...:18286080.html though I'm sure there would be cheaper alternatives. It is however ideal for this type of thing.

The genuine Noga is certainly on my list. I have never read a bad word about their holding power and rigidity. I have been trying to forget about them, just like that wonderful Guhring Tin coated drill set which has 0-10 in 0.1 increments for $230, or their 0-13mm 0.5 set for $89. I have gone too far this month.. It all started with a nice set of Mitutoyo V-blocks

Originally Posted by Pete F

A small Noga is an excellent investment, and definitely worth the money. Beware of copies, they are NOT the same. A small Noga mag base can just be stuck on the front of a chuck and will hold without any issue. I have one of these also http://www.messzeuge.santool.de/Mess...:18286080.html though I'm sure there would be cheaper alternatives. It is however ideal for this type of thing.

I know some here dismiss indicator droop as being immaterial, and often it is to the tolerances they wish to work to, however it's very real and easily measurable. Somebody can often get away with poor practice, but unless the rationale behind it is fully understood, that practice may one day come back to bite the person. Just for example, using lightweight indicators on rigid setups one can get away with a lot, however that may not be the case simply by swapping out indicators. I have a Compac indicator for example which is a very early model, possibly one of the most beautiful pieces of kit I own when the workmanship is considered. However it's also extremely heavy, to the point that I don't use it because of the weight. Even when doing lateral alignment (such as a tailstock), it's always good practice to try to ensure the setup is symmetrical when sweeping from one side to the other, just to eliminate any potential to be reminded that gravity always wins! Obviously the original holder satisfies that perfectly.

No dismissal here. It is a real issue - http://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...80#post1523980

As for Nogas, I'll rock the boat a little. I really dislike the indicator clamp incorporating the fine adjustment. It cannot cope with the weight of my dial indicators, they tend to flop about. As a consequence the Noga sits forlornly in the cupboard while I use an Eclipse mag stand. Some of the bitty Nogas have the fine adjustment located between the base and the articulated arm. The clamp is a basic affair that in my mind is a better option than what I have.

What's on yours Pete?

Bob.

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

No dismissal here. It is a real issue - http://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...80#post1523980

As for Nogas, I'll rock the boat a little. I really dislike the indicator clamp incorporating the fine adjustment. It cannot cope with the weight of my dial indicators, they tend to flop about. As a consequence the Noga sits forlornly in the cupboard while I use an Eclipse mag stand. Some of the bitty Nogas have the fine adjustment located between the base and the articulated arm. The clamp is a basic affair that in my mind is a better option than what I have.

What's on yours Pete?

Bob.

I only have one Noga Bob, and one ripoff arm, and the Noga adjusts as you described above, with an adjustment on the base. It's very clever in my opinion, as with no adjustment on it can spin 360 degrees to then adjust in that direction. Only one direction at a time of course. I love the adjustment. I've seen pictures of the ones on the arm, I take it that's what you have and they're no good?

Bob I agree My noga sits in my tool box. I use a rigid Mitutoyo stand, The little Noga is great for the test indicator though is to floppy for anything else. I also have a Chinese rip off Noga which I find rigid enough but it doesn't have the floppy fine adjust

Originally Posted by Pete F

I only have one Noga Bob, and one ripoff arm, and the Noga adjusts as you described above, with an adjustment on the base. It's very clever in my opinion, as with no adjustment on it can spin 360 degrees to then adjust in that direction. Only one direction at a time of course. I love the adjustment. I've seen pictures of the ones on the arm, I take it that's what you have and they're no good?

Not no good but they would be better in my humble opinion if the spring used in the adjuster had a lot more tension. Mine could be rooted but it can't cope with the weight of a 58mm diameter Compac indicator. ( Mind you, the Compacs are the heaviest dial indicators I've encountered.) What I do like about the clamp is the 8mm hole which suits the shaft of both the Compacs and the much lighter Mahrs, neither of which are blessed with mounting lugs.

Noga make a much larger base and arm than mine but I think it still utilises the same clamp. Ray has one and I photographed it and the rest of Ray's Noga collection last year. While it is inappropriate to festoon this thread with irrelevant photos it might be worth a new thread to discuss their attributes or lack of.

BT

Interesting, I was on the lookout for a larger Noga but maybe I'll reconsider? The small one is great, can't fault it. There's no spring in it that I'm aware of, although I'm not sure how the adjustment pivots.

If you think the regular Compacs are heavy Bob, you should feel the weight of that early one. Rene, from Long Island Indicator, his Dad made it. Even Rene said he hadn't seen one that early.

Speaking from knock-off magnetic stands.... this is the Swiss original the others were copied from, still available:
http://www.fisso.com/en/produkte.html