Thread: Today's tool acquisition

I wasn't going to talk about this one until I had some time to get started sorting it out but the cat was let out of the bag...

Originally Posted by Machtool

...I spent 15 minutes the other day searching Ebay for Jones & Shipman, Jone's and Shipman, John's & Shipman, J & S 520 etc.

Tonight I get an email from MichaelG, saying he's bought it, and the friggen thing was on Gum Tree...

So - yes I did buy it after a bit of haggling on price and it's here in the shed.
According to the lathes.co.uk site they were made between the late '30's and late '40's, so my first thought is that it was a machine designed and made for the war effort. There would have been plenty of small parts required for vehicles and weapons that could have used parts made on it. The only serial number I can find on it is this -
P1020305 (Medium).JPG
I'm guessing it was made in the 32nd week of 1936? The other end of the table is equally interesting - it has a built in sine bar on the table

P1020302 (Medium).JPG
So getting those tapers right should not be an issue. An ISO30 should fit; an ISO 40 just. (BT will be pleased)
The paint is in remarkably good condition - Once the grime has been cleaned off. I would suspect that it is not original except there is paint in places that you would not have expected it to be if it were a touch up job. I'm told that this blue is the official J&S colour.

P1020308 (Medium).JPG P1020295 (Medium).JPG
The second picture there is the traverse gear box (traverse is driven by a rack on the bottom of the table). I can't find anything that automatically feeds the wheel in when traversing, so that may have been one of those famous "on some models" features. The grinding head is fed in on a slide with 1" of travel. The head itself can also be adjusted for position, so there is a total in feed available of 3", although only 1" at a time. The in feed dial is the middle one and has a hard stop to feed up to. It works via a shaft that then is geared down (box at the back of the machine). To take backlash out of the in feed, there is a cable and weight to apply a constant load to the screw.

P1020296 (Medium).JPG P1020298 (Medium).JPG P1020303 (Medium).JPG P1020307 (Medium).JPG
There is a little bit of damage - nothing that makes the machine unusable though.

P1020299 (Medium).JPG P1020300 (Medium).JPG
The machine looks like it is oil only but first I need to find/ make some new parts, get grinding wheels (5" x 3/8" - rocking horse stuff) and clean the sticky dried oil out (and doge up a miniature line shaft to drive it...).

P1020301 (Medium).JPG

Michael

Hi Michael,

Do you have any other pictures of the sine table. sounds interesting I cant work it out from your pictures.

How about the 320th day of 1936?

Stuart

Very Nice Michael. Good looking colour wise too.

I too have my interest piqued by the built in sine bar arrangement.

Dean

Michael
I think I have the Sine Table figured. When the table is hard up against the roller, as shown in the photo, it is set to grind parallel.
When the correct gauge block is inserted then it is ready to grind the predetermined angle.
Looks like a handy machine.
regards
Bruce

Stuart, your guess on J&S serial numbers is as good as mine.
My thoughts on paint were off though - while stripping the table down to answer Stuart's question I found a bit of casting that had been broken off through rough handling and the fracture surface was painted. In a way that is good as I won't feel constrained so much through having a historic machine.
Looking at some of the pictures I've already collected I think I can see the famous feed mechanism too. Looking at this picture there is a link between the traverse wheel and the in feed wheel. This is probably a ratchet or something that when the wheel is reversed pushes the link that in turn nudges the in feed in a bit. I'm trying to track down other owners (this is the 4th machine I know of world wide) for more pictures etc, so I hope that one of the machines will have one fitted and be able to show me how to convert mine.
jones_shipman26.jpg

Now pay attention Stuart - I had to explain to my wife that this was really quite simple but one of the guys had asked a question and so I needed to strip the machine down, clean it up and explain. I did say that hanging pictures in the house was obviously more important but we had to humour you...

Base of the table with everything removed. On top of that sits the work table that pivots on the boss
P1020309 (Medium).JPG P1020311 (Medium).JPG
On the left is a dove tail slide mechanism to rotate the table in a controlled way. The plunger engages in any one of the slots in the moving dove tail so that although the dovetail screw only travels a small distance by using the notches a large angle can be covered. I measured around 9 degrees at the extreme
P1020310 (Medium).JPG P1020312 (Medium).JPG P1020313 (Medium).JPG

When it is put together it can pivot like this
P1020314 (Medium).JPG
To use it as a sine table you then just put the appropriate slip gauges between the pin and the notched piece (and if you wanted the taper the other way you would flip the notched piece over 180 degrees. Shown is the set up you would use for one of Ray's universal 1:49 taper pins. With an 8" length, the slips should be 0.188". Of course if I had a surface grinder I could make up blocks to suit so that I did not have to make stacks of slips

P1020315 (Medium).JPG P1020316 (Medium).JPG

(NB the hex nuts should be ball handles)

Michael

Now pay attention Stuart - I had to explain to my wife that this was really quite simple but one of the guys had asked a question and so I needed to strip the machine down, clean it up and explain. I did say that hanging pictures in the house was obviously more important but we had to humour you...

You are hanging these pictures in your house? You are indeed dedicated to the cause. I find that having a visual reminder helps tremendously, but I usually just have pictures on the computer, not on the walls.

Dean

Thanks Michael, Great setup by the look of it..... now back to work lol

Stuart

Going by the lathes uk article, one of those was used by Rolls Royce in their R&D dept. It is certainly a step up in quality from the usual run of the mill stuff . Maybe they ( RR ) made Merlin Engine components on it ?

Originally Posted by Michael G

get grinding wheels (5" x 3/8" - rocking horse stuff)

Michael, what size wheels does your surface grinder take? 150 x 13 seems common, and a 5" wheel is just a 6" wheel that's worn down a bit, right? Thickness may or may not be an issue. Does it have separate arbors? But no doubt you've already thought of this and discarded it.

Very cool toy BTW. Small but perfectly formed. I have ambitions of doing cylindrical work on the Orden so I will be following your progress. Actually I have the same problem of needing 5" straight wheels, but hope to solve it with variable speed. That is, using a 6" wheel and slowing it down.

https://www.bolt.com.au/straight-too...5_996_999.html

My problem is a little more involved.
The guard on the machine won't allow anything bigger than 5" or wider than 10mm. 5" wheels are still available in the UK, so I might have to import a stock and do things that way. I might be able to "recycle" wheels off the surface grinder but the J&S has 1" bore, the Power 1 1/4". Bruce suggests that cylindrical grinding wheels are normally a harder grade too, so while a good plan in theory, it may not work

On a related note, does any one here have access to back issues of ME & MEW? At the back of my mind I seem to recall an article or two on a J&S 520 grinder back in the 1990's or perhaps more recently. I can't remember which publication and looking through the various on line indexes hasn't flushed anything out. I remember it because at the time I was surprised by the idea of having a grinder that had belts going up to a line shaft bolted to the bench it was mounted on.

Michael

Hi Michael,

You really are a quiet achiever!

You are two or so grinders up on me now. It's scary to think what you will be churning out in the not too distant future in your shed. I expect some really big things!

Simon

With the size of the grinder I'd say Michael will be making really little things

Well done Michael, looks good!
Ew

Michael i have a norton 5x1/4x1/2 38A60-K8VG that came with my t@c grinder (doesnt fit) i can donate (if its of any use), to the cause if you wish (1/2 inch hole)
john

Originally Posted by Michael G

................ (and doge up a miniature line shaft to drive it...).

Michael

Hello Michael,

What an exquisite little gem.

I had a look at Tony's coverage of the 520 and the image he has of the overhead drive. Looks a bit like an inverted reel mower.

Could you not drive the grinding spindle via a rear mounted motor and the workhead with a simplified drive like this one on a Studer OB? Another better known manufacturer of precision lathes offered an extremely simple overhead pulley drive for their compound or vertical slide mounted grinding and milling spindles. I have numerous images in my catalogue collection that I can copy and post if there is any appeal.

I was talking with Bruce on the weekend and he said you are minus the tailstock. I thought no big deal, just carve one out of a block of cast. Then I looked at the photos...... .

The photos below are of a Studer owned by a Swiss toolmaker, William Brem. Hopefully he won't mind me posting them here. Here is a clip of the machine in action - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J695u713GEs

Studer OB.jpg12.jpg1.jpg

BT

Originally Posted by tanii51

I have a norton 5x1/4x1/2 38A60-K8VG that came with my t@c grinder (doesnt fit)

Thanks John, but the spindle for this one is 1" - won't fit either

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

Could you not drive the grinding spindle via a rear mounted motor and the workhead with a simplified drive like this one on a Studer OB? Another better known manufacturer of precision lathes offered an extremely simple overhead pulley drive for their compound or vertical slide mounted grinding and milling spindles. I have numerous images in my catalogue collection that I can copy and post if there is any appeal.

I was talking with Bruce on the weekend and he said you are minus the tailstock. I thought no big deal, just carve one out of a block of cast. Then I looked at the photos...

Pattern making for some of the missing castings is the next big task. Fortunately I did a wood carving course just recently, so at least I have the basics covered for that. Time is the main issue. I've spoken to one of the local foundries and they can do it. I'll probably have to take up grave robbing to find the arm and leg though...

As for the drives, any suggestions are welcome. The main spindle is not a big issue although any belting has to be installed with the spindle apart and must be able to move slightly as the grinding head feeds in. Something similar to what you have pictured is probably the go. The challenge is the belt to drive the work head. The table reciprocates and the ability to offset the table up to 9 degrees has to be taken into account (in fact it's worse than that as there is a rotating workhead on the list of accessories, so strictly speaking the axis of the workhead drive could be at 60 degrees or more to the spindle excess). I need to work out what belting to run on it so I can find out stretch and tension limits. I was wondering whether a small gas spring could provide the necessary tension.

Michael