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Thread: Custom Quill

  1. #1
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    Default Custom Quill

    My machine is a multi purpose machine, drill and lathe in one (woodworking)

    I want to improve the design of the quill including bearings but dont know how much scope there is with the size I have to deal with.

    What I want to achieve
    1)better attachment method for attachments. Could be 2MT or R8 collet. Also an external thread on the shaft for the likes of wood turning chucks.

    2)better bearings. I am told that the bearings 'chatter' when used as a lathe and are not particularly suited to lathe work.

    3)If changing to 2MT change drive shaft so there is room for a knock out bar to travel through the entire assembly.

    Below is a picture of the quill. It is approx 44.5mm diameter or whatever the imperial equivalent is.



    At the moment chucks, face plates & other attachments are held on to a round shaft by a grub screw agains a small reverse taper



    The other end of the quill is driven by a spline as you would have seen in the top picture and inserts into this area below



    A view from slightly sideways



    and an overall view of the head stock



    I am sure there will be many views and opinions. Some no doubt will say or think waste of time. I thank you in advance for your time and consideration. Though this project will not happen over night it is one i am serious about pursuing.

    I would like the bearings to be able to cope with speeds of at least 3500 rpm, perhaps as much as 10,000 rpm. Dont know if that makes much difference?

    My thoughts are that I would do away with this quill assembly and build a new one from scratch



    Dave the turning cowboy

    turning wood into art

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveTTC View Post
    My thoughts are that I would do away with this quill assembly and build a new one from scratch
    You have little hope of converting that spindle to anything else so making a new one is the right thing to consider.

    Now - a 2MT shank needs to have either a knockout slot or the spindle needs to be through-drilled for a retention drawbar and the 2MT tool shanks have a corresponding female thread.

    R8 *must* have a drawbar as the taper is not self-locking.

    R8 is superior in just about every way I can think of to 2MT that, were I making a new spindle, *and* I had the room, it'd be R8 without a second thought.

    To get it done, I hope you have access to a friend with at minimum a good metal lathe and preferably a cylindrical grinder plus a milling machine for those splines, unless you're going to be content with runout measured in millimeters.

    PDW

  3. #3
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    I hope I have lots on friends on here

    It may cost me one way or another but I can hope I can wear that


    Dave the turning cowboy

    turning wood into art

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    R8 is superior in just about every way I can think of to 2MT that, were I making a new spindle, *and* I had the room, it'd be R8 without a second thought.

    PDW
    The existing bore in the head is about 44.5mm diameter

    Is that enough room for an R8, quill bearings etc


    Dave the turning cowboy

    turning wood into art

  5. #5
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    I can think of a few options:
    I have a sneaking suspicion that the diameters are all a bit small... You will be able to find slighter bearings that allow for a fatter spindle, but that would then require a new drive spine spindle as well.... I think much too complex and time consuming.
    You could through drill the spindle with a small hole for a knock-out pin or a slender drawbar. That certainly is not big enough for R8 though.
    If you went that way, a No2 or No1 Morse taper socket heat-shrunk, pressed or welded onto the little chuck mount stub would be possible. I probably would silver solder or braze a drilled solid on and then bore and ream the MT socket as a final operation on the spindle - that way you can have it running true. Runout is the enemy here in terms of fitting something finished onto the spindle.
    I'd be inclinded to keep the MT socket nice and short and use a knock-out though the spindle, rather than make it long enough for a radial taper knock out. THe whole thing isn't rigid enough. Remeber I've seen it.
    Lastly, if the bearings chatter in lathe mode, they are either worn out or started off with too much clearance. There will be a thrust bearing in there as well - that needs to be checked for wear in the form of ball indentations. I would stick to the single row deep groove ball races, rather than going to angualr contact bearings, because the AC bearings have a significantly lower radial load capacity - which you need for turning. I would shim the end clearance to provide 0 clearance or even a slight preload in the direction of the thrust bearing to minimise potential for chattering.
    I would be happy to help you with that if you can't do it locally and nonone else puts up their hand. As long as I don't get rushed

    Good luck!
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveTTC View Post
    The existing bore in the head is about 44.5mm diameter

    Is that enough room for an R8, quill bearings etc
    Doubt it - my M head B/port (2MT) has a 100mm diameter quill. The J head with the R8 taper is bigger.

    Now you could certainly get by with a smaller diameter as these heads have a lot more rigidity than the rest of your machine can possibly use but....

    R8 shank size is 0.949" so call it 25mm for minimum clearance. Add *at least* 3mm wall thickness, you're up to 31mm. Your OD is 44.5mm so you need to find suitable bearings with an ID greater than 31mm and an OD of 44.5mm. Have fun.

    Couple reference sites to taper dimensions to help you check stuff out......

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_taper
    http://www.toolsnz.com/store.php/info_tapers

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    Doubt it - my M head B/port (2MT) has a 100mm diameter quill. The J head with the R8 taper is bigger.

    Now you could certainly get by with a smaller diameter as these heads have a lot more rigidity than the rest of your machine can possibly use but....

    R8 shank size is 0.949" so call it 25mm for minimum clearance. Add *at least* 3mm wall thickness, you're up to 31mm. Your OD is 44.5mm so you need to find suitable bearings with an ID greater than 31mm and an OD of 44.5mm. Have fun.

    Couple reference sites to taper dimensions to help you check stuff out......

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_taper
    http://www.toolsnz.com/store.php/info_tapers
    My bore of 44.5 mm is in the head

    I still need a sleeve that fits in that to travel up and down for the drill action

    I am trying to understand all the components but if I got it right I need

    1) spindle / drive shaft that will have either MT or collet

    2) bearings to go around the drive shaft and fit in the quill (assuming the quill is the bit with the grooves that travels back and forth in the headstock but does not spin)

    3) quill (notched sleeve to fit in the head bore and contain the bearings)


    Dave the turning cowboy

    turning wood into art

  8. #8
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    Joe,

    I am thinking a rebuild from scratch.

    If you are able to help that would be great. There is no immediate hurry, be great if it is up and running by my next get together.


    Dave the turning cowboy

    turning wood into art

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveTTC View Post
    My bore of 44.5 mm is in the head

    I still need a sleeve that fits in that to travel up and down for the drill action

    I am trying to understand all the components but if I got it right I need

    1) spindle / drive shaft that will have either MT or collet

    2) bearings to go around the drive shaft and fit in the quill (assuming the quill is the bit with the grooves that travels back and forth in the headstock but does not spin)

    3) quill (notched sleeve to fit in the head bore and contain the bearings)


    Dave the turning cowboy

    turning wood into art
    Starting at the basics:

    First there's the cutting tool with say R8 shank.

    Tool goes in spindle.

    Spindle goes in bearings.

    Bearings go in quill.

    Quill goes in head casting.

    Now if the head casting has a 44.5mm bore then the OD of the bearings in the quill is going to be less, probably 38mm or so. That leaves you 6mm for the difference between the OD of a spindle sized for an R8 taper and the OD of the bearing it has to fit in. Therefore the bearing thickness has to be around 3mm a side - 38mm OD, 32mm ID.

    Good luck with that.....needle roller is about all I can think of.

    I'd suggest maybe looking at making a new spindle (or welding a bit on the end of the current one) and machining it for say an ER32 collet - it's been done often and the nut is easy to buy. OK it'll stick out further than one sunk into the spindle but you won't need to drill a through hole (and you're looking at maybe 40 diameters of a drill deep for a 12mm drill bit ie gun drilling territory). Still need to machine the splines but this isn't difficult on a half decent mill.

    I'm happy to offer suggestions & information but - the thought 'electrodeposition of auriferous material on a coprolite' keeps coming to the forefront of my mind though.

    PDW

  10. #10
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    Default Custom Quill

    does this work



    were the quill exits the headstock I have it protrude 50 mm and enlarge it 100 mm OD

    The spindle has predominantly a 31.5 mm OD except where it is larger at the taper.

    The spindle can be reduced at the small end of the quill to take a bearing and even the wall of the quill could likely be reduced from a 6 mm wall to a 3mm wall at that point to give a shoulder for the bearing to seat on and more space for a bearing. I figure a bearing at this end will not take near the load at the collet end.

    At the collet end I have drawn the OD of the spindle following the contour of the collet shape though it need not. It could be straight and even enlarged.

    The flared end of the quill could be played around with as far as wall thickness etc as required.

    Overall how does this idea work?

    I still need to work out the drive spline for the spindle, how it conects to the pulley and how to have a draw bolt work through all this and compensate for about 100 - 120 mm travel in the quill.

    I have not taken the other end of the headstock spline and pulley system apart yet so as to know what I have there to play with and the options. I do know it is the same bore, 44.5 mm approx


    Dave the turning cowboy

    turning wood into art

  11. #11
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    I don't think this works because your dimensions don't match what you've got. Take the quill apart and I think you will see what I mean. Then make a drawing of the quill the way it is actually constructed and we'll go from there.

    (PS: I have some time tomorrow to work on your glue gizmo.)
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhovel View Post
    I don't think this works because you di,ensions don't match what you've got. Take the quill apart and I think you will see what I mean. Then make a drawing of the quill the way it is actually constructed and we'll go from there.

    (PS: I have some time tomorrow to work on your glue gizmo.)
    G'day Joe,

    The picture above would be a complete build from scratch. The smindle detail needs to continue through to the pulley which I have not shown

    (PS: looking forward to Mk 2)


    Dave the turning cowboy

    turning wood into art

  13. #13
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    If you are redesigning, I would start with what bearings to use... And work out what is affordable in the first place...
    Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    If you are redesigning, I would start with what bearings to use... And work out what is affordable in the first place...
    I know very little about bearings. This is another area where I need advice.

    I do want something that is good. The main bearing I imagine should cater for all the 'thrust' load and significant 'side' load too.

    The rear bearing I imagine is largely stabilising and assisting with side load would be its main purpose.

    I tried looking up bearings last night and got pages and pages of stuff and had no idea what I was looking at.

    The rear bearing is the tightest for space ... I would like a maximum of 38.5 mm OD with a bore of 31.5 mm or less. The larger the bore the more I have for a drive mechanism. I am thinking if I could keep 25 mm as a minimum bore size but dont know id that is viable or not

    SO bearing 38.5 OD and 25 Bore .... or close there to. Can I get a good bearing for that purpose around that size?


    Dave the turning cowboy

    turning wood into art

  15. #15
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    would this type of bearing suit the end of the spindle at the top of the quill



    it is needle bearing

    38 OD
    20 wide
    29 ID


    Dave the turning cowboy

    turning wood into art

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