Thread: Oxy Cyinders - Purchase

Originally Posted by Stustoys

You dont care(if you're talking about buy a cylinder from Speed Gass) you just change it over like swap and go. But 10 years I believe is the answer to your question..... but then, I might be out of date myself. lol


There was a guy around that did that sort of thing with argon cylinders. Emptying one full cylinder into 3 empty ones, getting about 87.5% of the gas out. You'd want to be careful... things would get hot and cold. There was a pump on ebay a while back for transferring the dregs of many cylinders into a full one........I controlled myself hehe

Stuart

Stuart, that was me. And no, things do not get hot or cold if you allow about 10 to 15 minutes for the transfer. The donor cylinder does not get cold enough to show condensation. The receiver cylinder will not even feel warm. But that is Argon, an inert gas. I would not recommend doing diy transfers with Oxygen unless one is very confident about what he is doing.

But..... another idea instead of using bottled Oxygen. What about an oxygen generator, sometimes refered to as an Oxygen concentrator. These units are used by people with medical breathing conditions, where a cylinder would have to be replaced daily. These units contain a small oil free membrane air compressor. The air passes through a oxygen concentrator that essentially lets esacpe Nitrogen and humidity out one end, and Oxygen out the other end (Air is made of 78% Nitrogen and 20% Oxygen). The Oxygen purity depends on flow rate (low flow about 98% pure Oxygen, high flow about 70% pure Oxygen, in any case pure enough for brazing and welding purposes). Such units cost new around $5k. But many elderly/sick people have little choice and buy one. And when they pass away, these units may pop up on eBay for $500-1000. Cheaper than renting bottles, and for occcasional use power consumption (about 500W) is negligible. Google it up if interested, here a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXD_J8PxUnE
I came across the idea when my wife needed Oxygen, and we were loaned such a unit by the hospital. It has been returned since.... but the idea remains.

There are more sharks in this industry than on Australia's East coast at whale migration time.

What looks to be a cheap refill may well not be .

Vendor A

A "D" size cylinder( exchanged refill) refill in Oxygen,Argon or Argo mix from vendor A ,locally is $200 deposit (refundable on return) and $69 Oxy and $99 for the others.

A D cylinder is 1.7 cubic meters capacity - that's $99 /1.7(cubic metres) = $58.25c per Cubic meter

Vendor B

An E Cylinder in Oxygen,Argon or Argo mix from vendor B ,locally is
$320 (outright purchase only) and No oxy and $179 (exchanged refill) for the others from Vendor B

An E cylinder is 4.00 cubic meters capacity - that,s $179 /4(cubic metres) = $44.75c per Cubic meter.

You could sell the cylinders when no longer required but new buyer would be committed to purchasing gas from vendor B.


Up here you can set up a D size Oxy and Acetylene for -Oxy $200 dep +$69 refill

Acetylene $200 dep + $99 refill

$568 ready to go.

Pricing would appear to depend on vendor location and competition.

If considering O/A for cutting frequently with D cylinders,forget it, you will trotting be back and forward exchanging Oxygen cylinders frequently.Cutting really consumes Oxygen, big time.

In my own case I would like to use OA for silver soldering and brazing but its still too dear for me. For those dollars I could buy a top end LPG torch and lots of LPG gas and still have a fistful of money over.

Hope this helps someone.
Buyer be aware.

One last thing please!! fellas - They are bloody CYLINDERS not bottles.

Beer and milk comes in bottles. Potentiality dangerous stuff such as welding gases are contained is pressure resistant cylinders.

Grahame

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

Stuart, that was me.

Yes you said
//metalworkforums.com/threads/1...74#post1760874

Originally Posted by Grahame Collins

Potentiality dangerous stuff such as welding gases are contained is pressure resistant cylinders.

So Coke comes in cylinders?

Just for the record a couple of months back I purchased an E sized cylinder Argon/Oxy from Gasweld. If I dont empty it in about 20 months I can throw it out and be even with renting from BOC!

Stuart

Originally Posted by Grahame Collins

.



One last thing please!! fellas - They are bloody CYLINDERS not bottles.

you tell em Grahame...lol

Originally Posted by Stustoys

If I dont empty it in about 20 months I can throw it out and be even with renting from BOC!

Stuart

it cost me $904 in rental 2009-2014 for a co2 from supergas...and I took it back 80% full...no credit given for the gas

Originally Posted by eskimo

it cost me $904 in rental 2009-2014 for a co2 from supergas...and I took it back 80% full...no credit given for the gas

Pretty sure I've mentioned this before......... but....... What really killed BOC for me was the time I went to swap my E sized bottle "We have a D, no E's" say BOC. No big deal I'll just take a D and swap back next time. "sure" says BOC. Got a strange bill from BOC but was to busy to work it out, just paid. After I swapped back I got another strange bill but had time to make some calls and work it out. Turns out you cant just swap a cylinder size like that,(though the counter staff either dont know, dont care or think everyone knows)you have to rent the size you're using, so BOC cancels whats left of your 12 months rental on the returned bottle, then charge you 12 months on the bottle you've just taken. "Oh I see" I said " you've just not credited me with the 10 months rental". "Oh we dont do that" they said. We then had a discussion about the fact that the only reason I changed bottle sizes is because they didnt have what I wanted......to bad..... seems I should ring first to check they have what I need. I think I got 2 months rental returned as "goodwill", trust me there isnt a lot of goodwill here!

Am I the only one that didnt know this?


Stuart

Originally Posted by Stustoys

Am I the only one that didnt know this?

no....I didnt know that is what they do

Originally Posted by Stustoys

Pretty sure I've mentioned this before......... but....... What really killed BOC for me was the time I went to swap my E sized bottle "We have a D, no E's" say BOC. No big deal I'll just take a D and swap back next time. "sure" says BOC. Got a strange bill from BOC but was to busy to work it out, just paid. After I swapped back I got another strange bill but had time to make some calls and work it out. Turns out you cant just swap a cylinder size like that,(though the counter staff either dont know, dont care or think everyone knows)you have to rent the size you're using, so BOC cancels whats left of your 12 months rental on the returned bottle, then charge you 12 months on the bottle you've just taken. "Oh I see" I said " you've just not credited me with the 10 months rental". "Oh we dont do that" they said. We then had a discussion about the fact that the only reason I changed bottle sizes is because they didnt have what I wanted......to bad..... seems I should ring first to check they have what I need. I think I got 2 months rental returned as "goodwill", trust me there isnt a lot of goodwill here!

Am I the only one that didnt know this?


Stuart

Outch... I would have fallen for that one as well. BOC is the only company that I've ever had insoluble billing troubles with, I picked up some stuff, TIG consumables, bottle swap and whatever, paid via eftpos, and thought no more about it, until a bill arrived weeks later, with an invoice for the exact same amount that I'd purchased, so I just filed it. Next I get a late payment notification, so I ring up and explain that I paid cash when I picked up the goods, they claim they have no record of this, so I send them a photocopy of the bank statement, showing date and eftpos amount, they then proceed to suspend my account and threaten legal action ... Many phone calls later and more than a few angry exchanges, They change their story and claim the invoice was for cylinder rental not for the purchases, and I'll get no more gas until the account is settled. So I pay the miserable lying cheating crooked mongrels and move on with my life.

Did I mention I hate paying BOC cylinder rental.

Ray

Originally Posted by Grahame

There are more sharks in this industry than on Australia's East coast at whale migration time.

What looks to be a cheap refill may well not be .

Vendor A

A "D" size cylinder( exchanged refill) refill in Oxygen,Argon or Argo mix from vendor A ,locally is $200 deposit (refundable on return) and $69 Oxy and $99 for the others.

A D cylinder is 1.7 cubic meters capacity - that's $99 /1.7(cubic metres) = $58.25c per Cubic meter

Vendor B

An E Cylinder in Oxygen,Argon or Argo mix from vendor B ,locally is
$320 (outright purchase only) and No oxy and $179 (exchanged refill) for the others from Vendor B

An E cylinder is 4.00 cubic meters capacity - that,s $179 /4(cubic metres) = $44.75c per Cubic meter.

You could sell the cylinders when no longer required but new buyer would be committed to purchasing gas from vendor B.


Up here you can set up a D size Oxy and Acetylene for -Oxy $200 dep +$69 refill

Acetylene $200 dep + $99 refill

$568 ready to go.


Grahame

PS. Grahame, what happens to those costs when you take it over say a 10 year period, and factor in the BOC cylinder rental costs. In my case ( 2x E cylinders) that would add up to $3300, with zero gas usage.
2* $320 = $640 one time is cheap.

Originally Posted by RayG

Did I mention I hate paying BOC cylinder rental.

I have never mentioned that I just HATE BOC


Some years ago I had a run in with them. The Refrigerant Reclaim Australia ( and the fed govt ozone ACT) was paying $5/kg (i think it was) for reclaimed refrigerant. I was using BOC reclaim cylinders at the time.
When the bottles were full, I'd return it and collect another empty, and this went on for several years....these were 60kg cylinders

Then one day I had an emergency and had to use anothers suppliers (Actrol) reclaim cylinder. The month following the return, I received a cheque in the post for the reclaimed refrigerant.

Then it hit me, BOC had never sent a cheque for the reclaimed refrigerant.

Enquiries to BOC led to the answer that the rebate finished ages ago. I even rang the National Sales manager in syd and he advised the same.

So why did Actrol send me cheque??? ....enquiries with RRA led to the answer that BOC Have to by law give a credit for the reclaimed refrigerant.

Then the fight started as to how many kilo's i had returned...they had no records .....this policy by BOC was Australia wide...no records for anyone who returned reclaimed refrigerant.
Even tho they had records of me having 60kg cylinders, they then tried to say that one can only get 45kg of refrigerant into them. Then I asked how they could get 60kg into one???that stuffed them
....but what did they really make on it...I mean, I could not have been the only one in Aus sending back reclaimed refrigerant for destruction/repurifying. It was law that wholesale refrigerant suppliers HAD to provide reclaim cylinders.....& as there was a war going with pricing on R22 and BOC were the cheapest I reckon there were a lot of companies who were short changed.
bloody pirates!!!

Top end LPG torch as stated by Grahame.

What is the best for home workshop use?

I have an E size oxy/acet pair of bottles which should be coming up for their annual rental. Must be time to make the big change. I also have an LPG regulator. Maybe an oxy/lpg setup may be the go. I do not do much heavy O/A cutting anymore and also have a plasma cutter.
Main usage would be for heating, silver soldering and maybe brazing.
I know that I can get oxy, argon and argon mix self owned bottles locally.

Ken

Originally Posted by RayG

Did I mention I hate paying BOC cylinder rental.
Ray

You & me both.

Similar story except I returned all my cylinders & kept getting bills for rental - which I ignored because I had no cylinders.

Eventually I get a threatening letter from the debt collectors about my unpaid account.

Fortunately I still had my copy of the yellow cylinder swap/return docket showing I'd returned 3 & taken none meaning I had none on rental.

I copied this, had the copy stamped/signed by a JP as a true copy and sent it in to them with a covering letter basically saying they were committing fraud and demanding money under false pretenses, because their own documentation showed that I owed no money, because I had no cylinders in my possession. Further that I was going to cross claim for fraud in court if this wasn't settled ASAP.

Funnily enough it was settled in less than a week complete with grovelling apology.

I've never dealt with them since and I never will again.

If there was a place in Hobart where I could buy cylinders & swap them, I'd do it in a heartbeat. As it is I'm tempted to bring a full cylinder back each time I go to Sydney in the 4WD. Had too much other 'stuff' this time, alas.

PDW

Peter,
Bunnings in Hobart have 'Swap 'n go' Oxy and acetylene. No need to buy cylinders.... (just their $200 security deposit each).

Originally Posted by jhovel

Peter,
Bunnings in Hobart have 'Swap 'n go' Oxy and acetylene. No need to buy cylinders.... (just their $200 security deposit each).

What I really need ATM is argon & migshield, unfortunately. I'm paying rental on an E cylinder of Migshield, fortunately by the month & not with BOC. Still $20/month though.

PDW

Originally Posted by PDW

What I really need ATM is argon & migshield, unfortunately.

Go for CO2 for mig and buy a "beer gas" cylinder. Did that many years ago and haven't looked back. You can get it refilled at a fire extinguisher place (and some home brew shops).

I have a similar issue with pure argon (having to rent) and would love a swap and go type arrangement.