Page 1 of 6 123456 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 81
  1. #1
    FenceFurniture's Avatar
    FenceFurniture is offline The prize lies beneath - hidden in full view
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    1017m up in Katoomba, NSW
    Posts
    372

    Default Which Tap & Die set to purchase?

    I need to purchase a fairly simple Tap & Die set to use for odd jobs. I will need Imperial as well as Metric, and just in the common sizes, although it would be very useful to add a specific size on demand.

    I imagine that I would be using them mostly on Mild Steel, but I guess there would be enough occasions where I wouldn't be able to determine what the steel is (I need to put a thread on this particular rod so as to fit an M8 nut - who knows what the rod is).

    Looking at the McJings site, they have a fairly good selection, and a few questions come out of that:
    HSS or High Carbon steel? It doesn't have to be fantastic for the amount of use it will get, but "lasting for more than one use" is desirable (I've experienced Chinese steel in drill bits - never again)
    When it comes to Imperial there are a few different thread options in BSW, UNC, UNF etc. Is BSW the standard "garden variety"?
    Are the McJings T&Ds of reasonable quality? If not, what would you recommend?
    Looking at the Metric versions there, the seem to have two different pitches for quite a few of the diameters (e.g. M6 can be either x0.75 or x1). Is it the larger pitch that would be regarded as the standard?

    Any and all pointers and help appreciated.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    moonbi nsw Aus
    Age
    69
    Posts
    364

    Default

    Hi Brett. You have pushed your boat into uncharted waters.
    I like you wanted to be able to clean-up existing threads or cut the occasional new thread. My thinking was along these lines...I have a Toyota- metric threads. I have a Commodore- Imperial and Metric? then there is the WWII Jeep- Imperial.
    OK Imperial. Common useage is UNC UNF BSW (I will be shot down in flames here,you watch)
    UNC this would be the most common AND it also is VERY close to BSW ....except for ½". They are not compatible but everything underneath is The "C" is for course thread
    UNF This is for Fine threads The Jeep has a lot of them and engineers like fine threads too. They can be handy but coarse threads are more prevalent
    METRIC these have fine and coarse as you have already found.

    I have bought a Metric Set from M3 to M12 these were both fine and coarse

    I also have a set with UNC and UNF from eighth up to Half inch. The graduation were by one sixteenth.
    All the sets are Carbon Steel. If I am doing a specific job requiring multiple threaded parts I will buy HSS for that job with a long term view to may be end up with a HSS set
    Carbon Steel would be good enough for occasional use. As far as brands went...No "recognised brands" but I bought what looked alright. These were all Ebay jobs and so far they have been OK. Though a M12 die split while I was cutting a thread once. The metric set I have has 3 taps for each button die. They are "start", "middle", and "bottom". which is handy some times. The cost, from memory, was around $40. You should also buy some good quality lubicant. My favourite is Trefolex but at the moment I am trying Tap Magic.
    So concludes the walk through Tap and Die lesson.
    Just do it!

    Kind regards Rod

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    645

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    I need to purchase a fairly simple Tap & Die set to use for odd jobs. I will need Imperial as well as Metric, and just in the common sizes, although it would be very useful to add a specific size on demand.

    I imagine that I would be using them mostly on Mild Steel, but I guess there would be enough occasions where I wouldn't be able to determine what the steel is (I need to put a thread on this particular rod so as to fit an M8 nut - who knows what the rod is).

    Looking at the McJings site, they have a fairly good selection, and a few questions come out of that:
    HSS or High Carbon steel? It doesn't have to be fantastic for the amount of use it will get, but "lasting for more than one use" is desirable (I've experienced Chinese steel in drill bits - never again)
    When it comes to Imperial there are a few different thread options in BSW, UNC, UNF etc. Is BSW the standard "garden variety"?
    Are the McJings T&Ds of reasonable quality? If not, what would you recommend?
    Looking at the Metric versions there, the seem to have two different pitches for quite a few of the diameters (e.g. M6 can be either x0.75 or x1). Is it the larger pitch that would be regarded as the standard?

    Any and all pointers and help appreciated.
    I have had more success with HSS than Carbon. I tend to break carbon steel taps quickly. They are usually the cheap ones. I have broken a few Bordo carbon taps so I no longer buy them. Ebay UK is a really good source for high quality taps at prices cheaper than you can buy local import junk. I have had nothing but good experiences with Dormer, ESC, Guhring, Yamawa and Nachi taps. I had a Europa blow up a couple of weeks ago, so I do not really rate them. I have moved from standard taps to Spiral taps. I have much more success with them cutting a clean thread and also going straight. I have also had near zero breakage.

    BSW is British Standard Whitworth. Probably not what you want for Imperial unless your dealing with old British machines/cars. UNC is Unified National Coarse, and UNF is the Fine pitched Imperial. Generally cheap Bunnings bolt packs come in UNC. We are metric, but for some reason they stock mainly Imperial.

    M6 x 1 is generally what I have come across. I can't say I have seen an 0.75 M6 bolt. No doubt they exist. Just not in my realm.

    Generally speaking as far as Metric goes, all Japanese cars run metric bolts. I have found the thread is almost always fine pitched. That said my milling machine clamps are all metric and coarse thread.. make of that what you will.

    I have also not had luck purchasing tap & die sets. I find it is cheaper to just purchase them one by one. The quality brand sets tend to go for serious money.

  4. #4
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    7,182

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    Looking at the McJings site, they have a fairly good selection, and a few questions come out of that:
    I have a few of theirs and found that they don't stand up to repeated use but then again they are fairly cheap. The headaches come when cheap ones get blunt and break in a hole and then you really start swearing.
    I found out I was wearing out a Mcjing 3/16" tap after about a dozen holes in 12 mm steel and after that the breakage rate went up. I must have broken half a dozen before I went to the CTC taps in this size.

    HSS or High Carbon steel? It doesn't have to be fantastic for the amount of use it will get, but "lasting for more than one use" is desirable (I've experienced Chinese steel in drill bits - never again)
    The HSS won't chip or break as easily as Carbon Steel.

    When it comes to Imperial there are a few different thread options in BSW, UNC, UNF etc. Is BSW the standard "garden variety"?
    More or less.

    Looking at the Metric versions there, the seem to have two different pitches for quite a few of the diameters (e.g. M6 can be either x0.75 or x1). Is it the larger pitch that would be regarded as the standard?
    Standard for some things and not standard for others.

    With T&D sets you basically get what you pay for.
    Cheap sets tend to
    - be made out of cheaper steel so the taps are shorter so they won't break as easily. Sometimes the taps are too short and the shanks are too fat so they can't continue cutting into the hole and limit the length of thread that can be cut
    - come with smaller (1") thin non-adjustable size dies, these make the thread cutting hard to start. its is really useful to be able to make the thread a little bit looser or tighter as required.
    - come with handles that are usually too small, hard on the hands and go sloppy really quickly.

    A good set
    - have a couple of different size comfortable handles to suit the size of taps and dies
    - will have 3 taps for each thread (a starter tap, a plug, and a bottoming tap) eg HAND TAP SET - 3 PCS - METRIC #G63
    - have larger thicker adjustable dies that are nice and tapered so they are much easier to start and form the thread in a much more reliable manner.

    I have lots of odd and sods or P&N and Suttons and some unknown brand Japanese ones that are very good and have on occasion even made my own tap from a die and VV when I needed a wierd size.
    The sets I have include
    - a small set of smaller sizes of BSW from Mcjing. I have replaced most of the common sizes with with the triple sets (starter, plug, and bottoming) from either McJing or CTC tools.
    I have two metric sets I bought from H&F one is a smaller cheap set of carbon steel, the other is their larger metric set in Alloy steel (https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/T014) which is much nicer to use.
    I recently bought a set of BSP taps I bought from CTC tools in moly steel and these work well.

    If I was starting over again I would just get the basic sizes in triple sets from CTC.

    One thing to invest in is a small tub of trefolex cutting compound. Its expensive but it will save a lot of heartache

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Bendigo Victoria
    Age
    80
    Posts
    7,471

    Default

    I find the cheap alloy/carbon steel sets pretty useless, OK to clean up an existing thread and perhaps for tapping in aluminium but that's about all.

    About 90% of my thread requirements are metric so I bought this H&F HSS metric set of taps

    T019 | 29 Piece - HSS Hand Tap & Drill Set | machineryhouse.com.au

    and bought the separate matching metric dies. It is very useful to have the correct drill sizes with the taps.

    I have also bought a few of the common Whitworth sizes and the odd UNC or UNF size as required, all in HSS.

    Once you break off your first cheap tap in a work piece you are "cured" of buying cheap taps, or at least you should be.

    +1 on the Trefolex, although it is getting harder to get, but definetely using a tapping fluid.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
    Age
    74
    Posts
    5,080

    Default

    Hi Brett,

    Dormer are excellent, Sutton are good, Greenfield are up there.... don't buy sets.. get them as you need them, taps usually come in sets of 3.. plug, taper, bottom..

    I've got mostly hand taps ( straight flutes ) but I'm seriously thinking of gradually going over to spiral taps, probably Dormer.

    Ray

    PS.. Most of the hardware/fastener places around here now carry "Goliath Brand" taps... they seem ok for the few I've used..

  7. #7
    FenceFurniture's Avatar
    FenceFurniture is offline The prize lies beneath - hidden in full view
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    1017m up in Katoomba, NSW
    Posts
    372

    Default

    Thanks very much to all for the replies, there's a lot of good info there. Will check all those links later on.

    Thanks again.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    9,088

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post
    I've got mostly hand taps ( straight flutes ) but I'm seriously thinking of gradually going over to spiral taps, probably Dormer.
    I think spiral taps are really meant for machine tapping at something less than full thread........but there are also gun taps (which are also called spiral pointed). Gun taps have smaller flutes as they push most of the swarf forward.


    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post
    "Goliath Brand" taps... they seem ok for the few I've used..
    I'd say their taps are at least as good as Suttons.
    "Our comprehensive range of quality HSS Taps & Dies are all manufactured in Birmingham, England"
    Just stay away from their tapwrenches and diestocks. They are just nasty*

    Stuart

    *Unless the ones I bought are knock offs

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    645

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stustoys View Post
    I think spiral taps are really meant for machine tapping at something less than full thread........
    Stuart
    Can you please clarify what you mean by "less than full thread"? The spiral taps I use (Dormer/Gurhing/Yamawa) all tap full threads well. Great for blind holes as well as all the way through. They tend to look more like a bottoming tap. They cut the thread right close to the bottom of a hole. I found that the threads are also nice and tight, but this might be more of brand issue than the type of tap. They also seem easier to get straight when hand tapping, but I am not sure why as they should theoretically be worse.

    I noticed that a discussion over on PM about hand taps has members referring to them as "yet to be broken" or "broken taps". Which I tend to agree with. Spirals draw the material out of the hole whereas normal taps tend to gum up and end up binding and breaking. I have had them break doing the 1 rotation, 1/2 reverse. More often than not (for me) they break on the reverse where it tries to break the chip.

    Here is a nice link on some of the different tap styles: Tap Guide, Styles , Chamfers, Markings, Symbols, Technical, Thread Forms, Tap Thread (inch) Limits and Dimensions

    tapping_head_action.jpg

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
    Age
    74
    Posts
    5,080

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stustoys View Post
    I think spiral taps are really meant for machine tapping at something less than full thread........but there are also gun taps (which are also called spiral pointed). Gun taps have smaller flutes as they push most of the swarf forward.
    Does tapping with a battery drill qualify as machine tapping...

    I thought the main difference was that spiral taps don't need to be reversed to break the chips. I can't think why they wouldn't be suitable for hand tapping.

    Ray

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    645

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post
    Does tapping with a battery drill qualify as machine tapping...

    I thought the main difference was that spiral taps don't need to be reversed to break the chips. I can't think why they wouldn't be suitable for hand tapping.

    Ray
    I think that the thought is that spiral taps are not as tapered as standard hand taps. So the thread is cut much earlier and potentially easier to get the thread off square. I find the opposite to be true. The thread starts earlier so it is easier to see if it is going off square and straighten it up before it is too deep. I would rather straighten when the tap is at the top of the hole, not way down the bore as with a hand tap..

    For the record, I am not sure if my M8 Europa was more a casualty of the clutch in my tapping head than the strength of the tap. That said they are almost the same price as Dormer/Gurhing/Yamawa etc, but, and it is a big but, they have no COO on them... so my money is going to the name brands with the first world COO.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    SA
    Posts
    1,649

    Default

    I sat back and watched this thread with interest, to see what comments came forward.

    I suppose it boils down to : are you using or working on/with, older threads or new stuff?

    If it's the earlier option, then you really have no easy fix.

    My father was a GM mechanic and I have almost unlimited bolts/nuts from those days, plus various metric stuff salvaged from gear - all different pitches.

    I have metric and imperial taps and dies in BSW, SAE, metric coarse/fine, and some UNC and UNF.

    It's never enough for all contingencies.

    If buying all new bolts then just go with the common metric in coarse or fine, or both.

    As for taps, HSS is the way to go without a doubt.

    Rob
    The worst that can happen is you will fail.
    But at least you tried.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    9,088

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by variant22 View Post
    Can you please clarify what you mean by "less than full thread"?
    60-80% (I dont have the range of drill sizes needed to play that game so my tapping drills are normally on the tight side)

    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post
    Does tapping with a battery drill qualify as machine tapping...
    ummm no not exactly.........I would have thought you'd have made yourself a torque limited stepper motor setup with auto reverse.

    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post
    I thought the main difference was that spiral taps don't need to be reversed to break the chips. I can't think why they wouldn't be suitable for hand tapping.
    Not "unsuitable", "less suitable". Spiral taps just arent as strong. As I remember it, most taps(hand tapping) are broken by bending not torque(how they work that out I have no idea and I cant find a link to back it up).
    Quote Originally Posted by variant22 View Post
    I think that the thought is that spiral taps are not as tapered as standard hand taps. So the thread is cut much earlier and potentially easier to get the thread off square. I find the opposite to be true. The thread starts earlier so it is easier to see if it is going off square and straighten it up before it is too deep. I would rather straighten when the tap is at the top of the hole, not way down the bore as with a hand tap..

    In a perfect world you would start out square and not have to straighten things up(a great way to break taps).....but most of us dont live in a perfect world

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    645

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stustoys View Post
    I think spiral taps are really meant for machine tapping at something less than full thread........
    60-80% (I dont have the range of drill sizes needed to play that game so my tapping drills are normally on the tight side)
    Can you please post a reference? Assuming we are talking about the same thing, I have not seen a separate drill size chart for spiral fluted taps. They seem to use the same sizes as hand taps.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    BELL POST HILL, 3215
    Age
    87
    Posts
    93

    Default Tap & Die.

    Hi Brett,
    Have just come back from Aldi's, & I saw a set there.
    Never took a great deal of notice, looked up their Cat. but there was nothing there.
    My guess wood be that it maybe up to ½"- 12mm.
    Regards,
    issatree.
    Have Lathe, Wood Travel.

Page 1 of 6 123456 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •