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Thread: Disecting his Imperial Majesty
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11th Jan 2014, 06:14 PM #1Philomath in training
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Disecting his Imperial Majesty
Almost simultaneously, Bob and I had Kaiser boring heads arrive from O/S. Bob's is metric and the one I got is imperial. Also almost simultaneously, we discovered that we had problems with them. In both cases there were things wrong which suggested an internal examination would be worthwhile.
P1010997 (Large).JPG
After trying for about a week with the aid of some penetrene oil I managed to open mine up.
In the picture above the sleeve at the non boring end needs to be removed. Kaiser have been really cunning and after screwing the parts together there is a 1.5mm diameter pin that locks the threads together. The first order of business is to drill this out. This is hidden inside the top piece so an extended drill is needed. This one has been made from some 5/16" rod and a small grubscrew. It felt dicey but worked. One place I worked the fitters used to (silver) solder the bits into rods when something like this was needed but as I want to use the drill bit normally I elected to use the grub screw.
P1020007 (Medium).JPG
With the top removed the rest was "simple". This was the sight that greeted me. There are 54x2mm diameter balls in there. Kaiser heads are very close tolerance and need to be clean, lubricated only with oil. This one is filthy - probably part of the problem.
P1020006 (Medium).JPG
The next ring just slid off. The photo shows the selector gear for facing or boring. The feed works as a cycloid gear box. When facing is selected the gear allows the two gears shown in the next picture to drive one another. When boring the gear actually drops down so that it only meshes with one gear. More 2mm ball bearings. I found that one of the gears in my boring head has had the teeth chewed a bit. I don't know whether it is terminal or not at the moment. Everything is soaking in kero prior to cleaning and reassembly
P1020009 (Medium).JPGP1020008 (Medium).JPG
With that stage off, the feed mechanism is revealed. The gears shown drive a rack on the slide but getting from the 'gear box' to the slide was a mystery until I noticed a helical shape on the inside of the ring I'd just removed. In effect, it is a worm drive with the worm gear inside the worm (which is then driving off the internal surface).
P1020011 (Medium).JPG
This last photo also shows one of Bob's concerns. The lower vernier ring can be adjusted for easier setting but Bob couldn't get his to move more than 90 degrees (mine would not move at all). There is a tiny stop at the left end of the cut away section of brass. Those darn Swiss think of everything (but typically Swiss, there are lots of tiny screws (and balls) all over the place).
More later after everything is clean (I hope)
Michael
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11th Jan 2014, 07:30 PM #2.
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Thank you Michael for the evisceration pictorial but I'm still stumped. Where was the lock pin located on the Imp?
I've spent the day bathed in sweat both because of the heat and the tension from having mine jam a couple of times as a result of my tampering. I have not as yet wired anything off to Kaiser in Switzerland but I've taken a number of photos in preparation.
Here is the top side of mine. Removal of the three M4 cap screws has no effect. Nothing comes apart. There's a trio of 1mm diameter pins exposed on the flat at the base of the taper and I do not know their purpose. They could be the end of screws? My fear is stuffing the thing up. Maybe I'll just wait and see if the Swiss are sympathetic.
To the other few that may be interested in this esoterica, I told Michael that we are both missing an additional stop. Staring at me in the catalogue cover photo is a cylindrical stop to the left of the verniered stop. Never noticed it. It is missing on the other Kaiser heads I have photos of. Information regarding these heads is thin, gossamer bloody thin. Might be different if I spoke German or French.
Bob.
ps.
Michael mentioned an oil gun specifically for Kaiser heads he had found on Ebay. Swiss pricing at 98 US plus 33.12 postage. I have a couple of Wanners that look the same apart from the nose. The important bit is the label.
Need some Vactra II Michael, I've probably still got 17 litres of the stuff.
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11th Jan 2014, 08:02 PM #3Philomath in training
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I only had one pin. I didn't take a before photo as it was in the cone around the spindle but here is the exit hole. The thickness of that part is only around 9 or 10mm on mine
P1020006 pins.JPG
On yours I think these are the pins that need to be drilled (and one around the back)
071 pins (Large).JPG
The spindle on mine is fixed but I think that yours will unscrew - mind you, the thread is around 0.5mm pitch, so making up a change over will be a challenge.
As for lube, I was going to use sewing machine oil. The Penetrene does get in. Perhaps I should use that?
MichaelLast edited by Michael G; 11th Jan 2014 at 08:05 PM. Reason: Bob's PS
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11th Jan 2014, 09:18 PM #4Senior Member
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Oil Gun
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11th Jan 2014, 09:43 PM #5.
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Ha! I am well versed in Wanner haemorrhage Alan though to be fair on the Swiss, my pair of Alemite pom pom oilers as much oil. Like you say, a rust combatant. On a day like today I'd just about have to dip my hands in axle grease before I touched any thing in the shed!
I had a re read of the Kaiser instructions. They recommend Kluber Isoflex PDO 94 oil ( but they would wouldn't they ). I had a look on Ebay.Talk about haemorrhaging !!
And you will like the Kaiser, typically Swiss.
Bob.
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11th Jan 2014, 10:40 PM #6
I'm guessing this is the stop?
Those little heads sure make the Wholhaupters look simple inside. Its such a shame they are damaged. I know Bob didn't know until he got his, i take it you are in the same boat Michael? I also know what Bob paid.....ouch. For that money you would expect to be able to pull it out of the box and use it.
Ew1915 17"x50" LeBlond heavy duty Lathe, 24" Queen city shaper, 1970's G Vernier FV.3.TO Universal Mill, 1958 Blohm HFS 6 surface grinder, 1942 Rivett 715 Lathe, 14"x40" Antrac Lathe, Startrite H225 Bandsaw, 1949 Hercus Camelback Drill press, 1947 Holbrook C10 Lathe.
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11th Jan 2014, 11:13 PM #7.
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Yes Ew, that's MG's missing stop. Bit more complicated that the reversing stop that is absent on both our heads.
It is a prick when you throw a fair bit of dough at something and find on arrival that it doesn't function as it should. More of a prick when the seller says that it wasn't damaged when it left France but less of a prick when the damage is just noticeable in one of his otherwise very comprehensive photos. Then there was the admission that the seller had not tried to rotate the vernier ring which, like Michael's, was locked solid. Michael fared no better. Here is the seller's description of the head he bought.
Kaiser swiss Expandible Boring Head
Diameter: 5''
shank Dia: .500''
High Presicion 0.0002 Dia.
It is used but in the best condicion, work perfectly.
And mine ...
Used, but in very good condition (see pics) and fully functionnal - Extremely precise, with a vernier dial down to 0,005mm on the diameter - Floating zero ring (wich means that you can set the zero wherever you want it to be)
Floating zero ring?? Might have floated 50 years ago and then only 90 degrees.
I think that anyone entertaining the purchase of a complex boring and facing head, be it a Wohlhaupter, a Narex, a Gamet or a whatever, faces the uncertainty of not really knowing the condition and in many cases, the age of the tool. Does mine look like it was made in the 1960's ?
Bob.
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12th Jan 2014, 07:19 AM #8Philomath in training
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I paid much less than Bob for the one I got but it didn't have the box or any accessories. Bob was also buying from someone with a history of knowing about these heads while I was buying from someone who normally sold baseball cards, so I class my result as just disappointing. However, I was still expecting something that worked. Apart from the missing stop (which was spotted by Bob in the ad) the slide on this one would not move. Looks to be a combination of years of neglect & muck plus a chewed up gear. I suspect the chewed gear is a result of engaging the facing action without gently working the head until the gears align. Some people don't deserve to have nice kit to use.
Certainly in comparison a Wohlhaupter is simple.
Michael
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12th Jan 2014, 12:12 PM #9Most Valued Member
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after reading the first lot of posts regarding your purchases and now this I am glad I stopped looking...your advice of " not really knowing the condition" is heeded. I will stick with the universal I got from Taiwan tools a couple years back....I have tried it and it works . but I still dont really know how to use it correctly I guess
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12th Jan 2014, 01:07 PM #10.
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13th Jan 2014, 11:11 AM #11Most Valued Member
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13th Jan 2014, 09:32 PM #12Philomath in training
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More Kaiser kapers!
I spoke previously about how the head was driven. I've now cleaned up the scale ring so the "worm" can be seen. This drives the worm wheel in the next picture (yet to be cleaned)
P1020023 (Medium).JPG P1020011 (Medium).JPG
One of the features of this head is that it has a clutch that will automatically shut off if over loaded - either too deep a cut or hits the stop that Bob has made. There is nothing obvious there but I have a theory...
The ring closest to the spindle has a selector switch that goes from boring to facing. That flicks a small gear up or down. As mentioned before, when the gear is down it only engages the lower gear (not linked to the spindle) and when up, engages both in an action like a cycloid gearbox. The first photo is of that ring disassembled. The small gear sits in the pocket. Top and bottom are a couple of 3.5mm balls acting as a single point spindle, with a spring to take up the slack. The pushing up and down in done with a cam on the selector switch. To change from facing to boring takes very little effort so I think that as soon as the feed encounters some resistance, the gear flips down taking the head from facing to "boring". What's more, once in boring mode, twisting the scale ring (the one in the first picture) is the equivalent of a fast return stroke. Damn cunning.
P1020017 (Medium).JPG
The down side is how sensitive to muck these are. This next photo is a close up of the pocket for the gear (with the ball a the bottom). Eventually I had to push a rag into the sintered brass bush as just a slight amount of muck made it not move up and down smoothly. I'd hate to have one of these in a dusty climate. Perhaps that Swiss mania for clean is just because they know their boring heads will jam up without it.
P1020021 (Medium).JPG
Michael
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14th Jan 2014, 01:19 AM #13.
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I feel somewhat uncomfortable that Michael's misfortune in purchasing a tool that he has had to dissect has turned into a great benefit for me for me but I think we will both benefit in the end. This thread will hopefully serve as a warning to maybe a few others about the perils sometimes associated with acquiring the exotic.
I emailed Kaiser in Switzerland early this morning and received a reply 7 1/2 hours later. Whilst not what I hoped for, the confirmation that drilling out the 3 pins as suggested by Michael, to enable the removal of the arbor, is enough.
Here's my message followed by Kaiser's reply.
Hello,
I am hoping that you may be able to help me with a few questions I have concerning a boring head I recently acquired. I do realise the head is quite old, probably dating back to the 1960s.
The vernier ring does not rotate 360 degrees. It is limited to about 90 degrees of movement. I have indicated the amount of rotation with a blue pen on the head in the attached photos.The ring stops hard against a metallic stop within the body of the head. Was this normal for this head?
When I acquired the head the ring would not move. Application of penetrating oil over a number of days has resulted in movement but it is still difficult to rotate.
The facing feed and rapid traverse function well though I am not certain about the operation of the clutch.
The head would benefit from being dismantled and cleaned but I am uncertain as to how the head is assembled and the correct procedure for disassembly. A suggestion has been made that the three small (1mm ) diameter pins located around the base of the arbor require removal by drilling to enable the detachment of the P-A ring. ??
Is an exploded parts diagram and any other instructions still available for this head ? Was this head called a Piccolo?
Also, is an ISO 30 arbor available to fit this head?
The only information I have is a scanned brochure from, I imagine, the 1970s. The head illustrated in the brochure is the same as that shown in a 1974 Schaublin 13 accessories catalogue. The head I have appears similar to that offered by Schaublin as an accessory for their No.13 mill in the early 1960's.
Any assistance you can provide will be greatly appreciated.
Regards
Bob Thomas
...........
Western Australia.
Dear Sir,
Thank you for your e-mail.
Let us answer to your various questions:
First of all the “bad news”:
This is a very old boring and facing head PICCOLO.
Unfortunately there are no spare parts available any more –your head is a very old execution (way back to the late 50’s…).
There is no exploded parts diagram available – but you will find a manual in the attachment (hope this is of use for you).
These heads have been discontinued from our product range since several years ago – a new head will not be available.
KAISER in generally is not prepared to let any drawing at somebody’s disposal – sorry - but we hope for your comprehension.
I have been talking to the person in the repair department,
- The Vernier ring should rotate 360 degrees (there is something wrong inside the head)
- To dismantle the head the 3 pins have to be drilled out (your suggestion was right..), so the “shank part” can be loosen like a screw.
- There is an adapter available for ISO30 (the shank mounted on your head is what we called an “STP-connection”. This adapter will be mounted on this STP-shank
(STP shank shown on page 2 of attachment)
Unfortunately we don’t have any better news for you.
Best regards
KAISER Precisiontooling Ltd
Sales / Roland Wey
I was definitely lured by the seller's superb photos and the comment that the head functioned correctly. Had I known better the age of the head and been aware of it's intricacies, my bidding may have been more restrained.
BT
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14th Jan 2014, 06:54 AM #14Philomath in training
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Funny - I see it the other way. I buy quality used gear whenever I can because I can't afford the new and once I have it, clean it up as best I can. In this case (and it applied to the Taster as well) the item has arrived below expectations and so I have a choice of an expensive paperweight or stripping down to repair. I don't use paperweights so there is nothing to lose getting stuck in. I post pictures and results so that others in similar circumstances can benefit* from my situation, so I'm actually glad that Bob is able to use some of the information I've gained.
Will I change my buying habits after this episode? Well, I don't consciously seek out these problems but I haven't been able to stop looking at "exotica" yet, so I suspect that it will happen again.
Michael
*Or even just have their curiosity satisfied on how something works
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14th Jan 2014, 08:16 AM #15Most Valued Member
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