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  1. #76
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    Just another question, you know to cover all the basics, are you running the right oil? As the machine would predate the ISO specs?

    -J

  2. #77
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    Hi Josh,
    Yeah the original was shell tellus 27, I'll have to check the drums when I get home but I made sure it was the ISO equivalent first. Castrol hyspin 32 I think. I guess the thicker the oil the more the pump will strain. It's also pretty cold here, oil would be sub 10deg I would think.

    Ew
    1915 17"x50" LeBlond heavy duty Lathe, 24" Queen city shaper, 1970's G Vernier FV.3.TO Universal Mill, 1958 Blohm HFS 6 surface grinder, 1942 Rivett 715 Lathe, 14"x40" Antrac Lathe, Startrite H225 Bandsaw, 1949 Hercus Camelback Drill press, 1947 Holbrook C10 Lathe.

  3. #78
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    Default opinions please gents....

    Ok, so have isolated the direction or "steering" side of the unit, the oil is now just recirculating through the small pump and back to the tank. I am turning the direction/flow rate cam by hand. It makes that noise whenever there is a change in the cam position, which I presume moves the whole pumps innards up and down to change the direction over. Should I investigate or leave it alone?Cheers,Ew
    1915 17"x50" LeBlond heavy duty Lathe, 24" Queen city shaper, 1970's G Vernier FV.3.TO Universal Mill, 1958 Blohm HFS 6 surface grinder, 1942 Rivett 715 Lathe, 14"x40" Antrac Lathe, Startrite H225 Bandsaw, 1949 Hercus Camelback Drill press, 1947 Holbrook C10 Lathe.

  4. #79
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    To add to the last post, I can move the cam and get no noise, but only very slowely. I guess Richard was right, wear to the bore or veins or both. As soon as they go under any load they must be chattering. I'm wondering whether it would be possible to hone the bore with a cylinder hone and if needs be stone and lap the ends of the veins? Biggest reason is I can feel the noise being transfered to the table....

    Cheers
    Ew
    1915 17"x50" LeBlond heavy duty Lathe, 24" Queen city shaper, 1970's G Vernier FV.3.TO Universal Mill, 1958 Blohm HFS 6 surface grinder, 1942 Rivett 715 Lathe, 14"x40" Antrac Lathe, Startrite H225 Bandsaw, 1949 Hercus Camelback Drill press, 1947 Holbrook C10 Lathe.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ueee View Post
    To add to the last post, I can move the cam and get no noise, but only very slowely. I guess Richard was right, wear to the bore or veins or both. As soon as they go under any load they must be chattering. I'm wondering whether it would be possible to hone the bore with a cylinder hone and if needs be stone and lap the ends of the veins? Biggest reason is I can feel the noise being transfered to the table....

    Cheers
    Ew
    Hi Ewan I just looked at your vid with the pump running and table traversing. I am of the opinion that noise is pump related now of course unless you go a master gauge to check the line pressure [out put from pump] and circulating through the loop. that pump far too noisy. Another check is the mounts make sure tight and central and you have no stress on any of the fittings . vibes come from funny places. but it alarms me that that noise and ultimate vibe comes right through the machine.hydraulics can be a real headache.
    my old clunker here is a manual belt driven jones shipman brown sharpe clone has mech table traverse and leather belt driven to spindle and table.no vibe. i recon as stated the vanes be galled or the bore and a tight vane? suspect some ufo benn in there. not the f for flying.You might have to bite the bullet and keep a pump o/haul in mind.Be interested to see the guts of the pump. As the Germans say''dis does not happen in Chermany''. In a former life I worked for a leading German manufacturer,in fact attended Canberra many times [Belconnen].German design and technology is not with out its faults but and there is a but here most are caused by out side sources, interferences or interventions.Be very pleased to hear of any out come. Cheers

  6. #81
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    Re noise to the table, i'm pretty sure its coming through the hydraulics and not through the machine itself. The whole pump and motor is mounted on rubbers and has plenty of "bounce" left.

    The pump is now out and in bits.....the good news, there is nothing obviously wrong with it, the bad news, there is nothing obviously wrong with it......
    That not quite true. There are marks on bore presumably from where a vane was parked for who knows how long. There is a fair bit of scum around the bore "block" for want of a better word. The biggest thing is the cam spindle itself, one of its registers feels a bit gritty when you turn it. There is also a few marks on the blocks that the bore block slides on, some lapping there i think?

    Whilst pulling it apart may not be the *best* move, i'm glad i have as there is a few UFO's in there. As for the makings on the bore, i don't think they will effect anything......should i add some ultra fine lapping paste/toothpaste and spin the rotor and vanes around a bit?

    The Main rotor is half the size i expected, maybe 50mm dia x 50 long at a stretch. And yes, i have run the motor without the pump and no funny noises there.

    DSCN0694 (Large).jpgDSCN0697 (Large).jpg

    The small pump to drive the "steering" unit
    DSCN0699 (Large).jpg

    Behind the small pump, bearings and the cam shaft
    DSCN0700 (Large).jpgDSCN0701 (Large).jpg

    The bore block thingy, rotor out
    DSCN0702 (Large).jpg

    MAin rotor and veins
    DSCN0703 (Large).JPGDSCN0704 (Large).JPGDSCN0706 (Large).jpg

    Bore, with marks
    DSCN0708 (Large).jpgDSCN0711 (Large).jpg

    Block the bore block slides on and the bore block. Some making around the "J3" and in the bottom corner.
    DSCN0718 (Large).jpgDSCN0719 (Large).jpg

    Pump body, upside down(ish) The hole at 10 o'clock is for the end of the cam (bottom of pump) the hole at 4 goes to the no longer unknown drain pipe.
    DSCN0720 (Large).jpg

    Pretty simple once you get inside.....really it is

    Cheers,
    Ew
    1915 17"x50" LeBlond heavy duty Lathe, 24" Queen city shaper, 1970's G Vernier FV.3.TO Universal Mill, 1958 Blohm HFS 6 surface grinder, 1942 Rivett 715 Lathe, 14"x40" Antrac Lathe, Startrite H225 Bandsaw, 1949 Hercus Camelback Drill press, 1947 Holbrook C10 Lathe.

  7. #82
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    Yes Ueee the pump looks good..... My experience has only been with Vickers vane pumps, when they are stuffed they have ridges all over the surface the vanes scrape against.. I see none of them in your photo's...

    All I would do at the very most is carefully stone any burrs and leave it at that.. Replace the bearings if they feel like they need to be replaced...
    Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.

  8. #83
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    Hi Ewan,glad you pulled down the pump.Gives you peace of mind too .Was right that its eaten some sh 1t at some stage.
    With any hydraulics ''cleanliness is next to godliness''.I was going to say reading the maker that Enor at the end thought there ''might be a spaniard in the woodpile''. No Senor.Yes lap up the gall stone all the faces with fine stone lap your bore. can improvise 1 with a fat bit of big dowel with a slot cut in it feed you wet and dry into slot length of bore abrasive side out drive the end with a cordless drill slow 25 -50 rpm and move the impro hone up and down not stopping any wheretake out and check and use plenty kero as lube.
    Only the tiniest dag inside a pump will make it noisy assemble with clean as you can get use white spirit and dry with dry air[empty your air tank] be Canberra condensate in there for sure] use clean hyd oil on final assembly. no rags[lint]
    Also check the vanes for any binding too. or excess clearance.
    Any way good pics and am sure you on your way to a vibe less machine.
    If by some chance you can get
    a master gauge hyd press and check that it is in limits of m/c specs.
    Check all the ball check valves for dirt ovality and any ring barking if not used could be a rusty ring bark on 1 or more of the balls.
    Just trying to get all the bases covered for you but you have got it in hand and your head around it now. Cheers John. ps Chair pulled up at 'ring side seat''.J.
    Just an after shock /thought,When you inre install pump prime the circuit manually and try eliminate as much air as you can much like car brakes. also tighten up your pipes so no stress so the are not under any force. and ensure they are away from any solid part like the pedestal where they can touch.
    When you motor it up move around the hyd circuit and crack off fittings as you go [looking for air] but if you prime manually should be ok[ dont rush]. J. remember the old bull and the young bull.
    Last edited by j.ashburn; 9th Aug 2013 at 08:38 AM. Reason: more to add

  9. #84
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    Well, it is back together and working. As a bonus there are no bits left over....

    In the end i didn't touch the bore. I stoned the sliding block and its plates with a 1200mesh diamond stone. You could see your face in them....
    Assembled "wet" is John suggested. Put it all back in last night, flushed all the lines before replacing etc etc. The only other thing i did was flip the vanes around on the rotor. They were worn concave on one edge presumably were they rub on the rotor as they move in and out under load.

    The result....maybe a 10% reduction in noise. I think Phil F was right, it is probably normal.....

    The only thing i do need to address is the valve that adjusts the ferocity of the direction change. It is "ring barked" as John calls it, i have debured the ball but it needs to be replaced. The problem is its not just a ball bearing, although i think using one will work fine. The noise doesn't come from there though, you can take it right out and its still noisy.

    Thanks for all the help guys.

    Ew
    1915 17"x50" LeBlond heavy duty Lathe, 24" Queen city shaper, 1970's G Vernier FV.3.TO Universal Mill, 1958 Blohm HFS 6 surface grinder, 1942 Rivett 715 Lathe, 14"x40" Antrac Lathe, Startrite H225 Bandsaw, 1949 Hercus Camelback Drill press, 1947 Holbrook C10 Lathe.

  10. #85
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    Spose ear muffs/ plugs reduce the ''whirr' doesn't matter much to 61yo ears damage done years ago.Apparently according to the audiologists the damage comes from intermittent hi db's.Enjoy your machine Ewan and let it makes sparks. Good idea to keep the ''shaper jockey ' [Arthur I believe]'off it though.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ueee View Post
    Well, it is back together and working. As a bonus there are no bits left over....

    In the end i didn't touch the bore. I stoned the sliding block and its plates with a 1200mesh diamond stone. You could see your face in them....
    Assembled "wet" is John suggested. Put it all back in last night, flushed all the lines before replacing etc etc. The only other thing i did was flip the vanes around on the rotor. They were worn concave on one edge presumably were they rub on the rotor as they move in and out under load.

    The result....maybe a 10% reduction in noise. I think Phil F was right, it is probably normal.....

    The only thing i do need to address is the valve that adjusts the ferocity of the direction change. It is "ring barked" as John calls it, i have debured the ball but it needs to be replaced. The problem is its not just a ball bearing, although i think using one will work fine. The noise doesn't come from there though, you can take it right out and its still noisy.

    Thanks for all the help guys.

    Ew
    Give the seats a lap too use a sacrificial ball small leaks will squeeze through and make the ball hum 0.02. John.

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