Thread: Mars 5.5" lathe restoration

I did the first real work this afternoon, pulling off the tailstock. The cam-operated friction plate was stuck to the underside of the slides and contrary to expectations, the fine powder of Fe2O3 did not help it slide along smoothly. In the end it came off with some mechanical persuasion, revealing that the plate had split in half lengthways and been welded together again. I suspect it's no longer the original size or shape.

I took photos of a couple of the gears, it's a bit of a horror show:

p1080857.jpgp1080859.jpgp1080863.jpg

Others have visible fissures and small voids, but the 40T has one that a pea would fit into comfortably. There's no oil blobs left on there, all those dark marks are imperfections in the cast iron. If the distribution is uniform, it's no wonder that teeth are breaking off all over the place.

The bed only has one number, on the rear flat, "H134". The obvious conclusion that it was the 134'th Hercules model built.

John, I checked the rack, and it finishes before (or at) the gap. What you can see to the left of the gap is a weird scalloped edge on the bed - in that photo it's shadow makes it look like the rack continues to the left.

glen.

Hi Glen,
My gears look just like that too, don't think your special. Only the change gears though, every other gear is fine.

Here is the link to the gear program thread http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/la...98/index4.html

If your "H" in the serial # does stand for Hercules, i wonder what my L stands for. Unless the letters are part of a year/decade system, the number the machine #. Its pricked up my interest....by my count we should be able to get 5 or 6 serial numbers? Glens, Johns, Old Hutchos, onthebeachalones and mine...but i get the feeling i have missed one?

Is the machine a gap bed? I have never seen one with a fill in piece if it is.....yet another thing to add to the roundtoit list..

Oh, and "AU" is a big place, roughly where are you located? (before i make a bad joke about people from this state or that state....)

Cheers,
Ew

Originally Posted by Ueee

Oh, and "AU" is a big place, roughly where are you located? (before i make a bad joke about people from this state or that state....)

It's a good point. Depending on where you are there may be a member near that can help you cut some replacement gears. I think the virtue of CI gears is they were cheap to make. Making steel gears is not difficult if you have the equipment.

Michael

I'm in Townsville, we moved here from Holbrook when I was 10. Poke away, I have no particular state-based fanaticism.

BTW, not special? Seriously? They're all that bad? That's depressing.

The machine does indeed have a bridge in the gap. I won't know for sure until I take the saddle off, but it may even be removable.

p1080661.jpg

It's been a week with no update, but a very productive one. The lathe is mostly apart, with only the spindle, apron and saddle to be disassembled. I've started a website on the process, and most of the updates and photos will be posted there, with a note here when there's been a change.

https://sites.google.com/site/marshercules/

The latest page shows the removal of all the bits from the bed, saddle and headstock. There's a few assemblies, like the apron, which will be taken apart further over the next few weeks.

The big surprise is that my gap isn't. Oh, there's a gap piece cast into the bed, but it hasn't be cut out of the bed through the ways. The rack also runs through where the join should be as a single piece.

gap-front.jpg

John, I think you mentioned the crossfeed shaft drive gears under the small guard near the heastock?

swarf-guard-removed.jpg

Well, there's no drive gears underneath, and I think there should be. Can someone with a working lathe please enlighten me?

I've also admitted that the tray is beyond patching and I'll have to make a new one. A few holes is OK, but there's dozens and more appearing each day. Oh well, at least I have a pattern.

Regards, glen.

Those 2 gears were missing on my machine to, i bought 2 equally sized gears and machined them to fit. I'm not sure if same sized gears is the way it was originally though?

Good to look through your pics, you have some work ahead and i'll be watching with interest.

Cheers,
Ew

Just today I was looking at a very interesting Rapson & Dutton mid 20s single cylinder diesel stationary engine. Interesting design in that the inlet valve, exhaust valve and the injector all ran off the one actuation rod, I'm still trying to get my head around that.

Main reason for this post is to say that in the 50s Rapson & Dutton became Mars.

I don't think the gears _need_ to be identical, as the crossfeed is not generally used to cut threads and the exact speed is not critical, but I'll make some measurements and see what modulus and diameter will fit. PA is not an issue, either.

I'd love to know what happened to the gears, were they ever on the shafts or did they both break through hubs? Were both shafts disassembled and the gears removed deliberately? The leadscrew is crossdrilled but there's no sign of a keyway. Was it engaging a pin on a slotted hub that could be slid along the shaft to be disengaged?

I had a thought while talking to my father tonight about fiberglassing the inside of the chip tray, and he countered with taping the holes and epoxy coating it. While there's lots of small holes, it's still structurally sound and there's plenty of roughness to key into. A light sandblast and some epoxy should stick nicely.

Cheers, glen.

Bob, I have an A.H. McDonald diesel engine, and it runs off a single cam and rod as well. The cam pushes the rod forward to open the exhaust valve and lets it back on a spring for the intake valve. The intake action also presses a lever which pushes an injector plunger. Total movement on the rod is an inch or so, but the injector lever only moves 3/32. They should have very similar designs as both manufacturers used the Bronz injector (aka HVID).

I have transcribed four pages of typed history of RanD and Mars, but I need to get the author's permission before I can add it to my website. I received the pages through a 3rd party, so it may take some time.

I've also tracked down Mars Machinery and Tool Co's current incarnation, but they've been completely subsumed and any surviving historical records which may have existed were lost in the floods early this year.

Cheers, glen.

Originally Posted by lgftsa

I had a thought while talking to my father tonight about fiberglassing the inside of the chip tray, and he countered with taping the holes and epoxy coating it. While there's lots of small holes, it's still structurally sound and there's plenty of roughness to key into. A light sandblast and some epoxy should stick nicely.

Epoxy sticks to steel much better than polyester resin does. Depending on how big the holes are you may need to use fibreglass reinforcement, which can be either powder bound chopped strand mat (must be powder bound for epoxy) or a light woven glass.

Originally Posted by lgftsa

It's been a week with no update, but a very productive one. The lathe is mostly apart, with only the spindle, apron and saddle to be disassembled. I've started a website on the process, and most of the updates and photos will be posted there, with a note here when there's been a change.

https://sites.google.com/site/marshercules/

The latest page shows the removal of all the bits from the bed, saddle and headstock. There's a few assemblies, like the apron, which will be taken apart further over the next few weeks.

The big surprise is that my gap isn't. Oh, there's a gap piece cast into the bed, but it hasn't be cut out of the bed through the ways. The rack also runs through where the join should be as a single piece.

gap-front.jpg

John, I think you mentioned the crossfeed shaft drive gears under the small guard near the heastock?

swarf-guard-removed.jpg

Well, there's no drive gears underneath, and I think there should be. Can someone with a working lathe please enlighten me?

I've also admitted that the tray is beyond patching and I'll have to make a new one. A few holes is OK, but there's dozens and more appearing each day. Oh well, at least I have a pattern.

Regards, glen.

Glen nice work so far with your disassembly. Also great thing the web site too looked at it all and the pics.
Re the gears they are 2 meshing 20 teeth the lower 1 on the power feed shafrt is long and has a knurled collar on it slides along that key way all along the power feed shaft.it has an internal key way. this meshes with the lead screw 1-1 and slider allows you to pull it out of mesh the lead screw is just used as a dedicated screw cut only even though it is rotating in mesh.I have no guard on mine ad the 20 tooth lead screw gear had been removed came in a smal. box of bits with the Gt Scot.the lead screw as you have seen and mentioned has a round pin hole drilled in the lead screw.One would arseume [that word ]that the round pin acts as a shear pin.I wonder as been noted that these lathes have an appetite for gear dentition[too many mar's bars] the gear quality as too has been noted has porosity on the castings that would not be detrimental to the gears integrity.
Re the gap or non removable in your case.if you remember i noted that the rack seemed to go past.the normal gap. this gap am sure was butchered out of my bed as the marks on it was considered that this was due to ''prangs'' and abuse that this machine has suffered.It now falls into place with other ''d's in on the case.It appals me to see the demise of these once well thought out and accurate machines.Usually government in wartime seem to purchase a machine tool of quality and these machines saw service with our armed forces ww2.
On another bit of trivia Hercus lathes 9'' were fitted to the rear of a 3/4 ton land rover across the rear of the tray for field use by armourers in field workshops late 1960' - 70s era.Mostly used for ''foreigners'' but very useful for the facility in the field.
One of those lathes was purchased by the previous owner of my S B W lathe Smith Barker Willson.lathe.It was brand new in the box grease proofed and preserved for storage. Sadly the man didnt get to use it much as he was terminally ill at the time. Was purchased by an engineering studentfrom Melbourne. Missed that 1 by 2 weeks.

in the next few weeks will be making those 20 teeth gears you will need 5 min 2 for lead screw pshaft.2 for the tumblers and 1 for your gear set.
I do not have a quadrant plate steady or fixed steady ball turner or thread indicator.It is hoped to raise mine up 2 inches for its fitment to my old touring coach. want to take the shed with me if it happens travelling.
Also there was no face plate either but will adapt one. Re the spindle is hardened and dynamically balanced i found only .001'' wear with and oil clearance be ok. Ewan does mighty fine work on his Mars and gives encouragement to ''get er done'' K fenner. cheers John.

Originally Posted by j.ashburn

Glen nice work so far with your disassembly. Also great thing the web site too looked at it all and the pics.
Re the gears they are 2 meshing 20 teeth the lower 1 on the power feed shafrt is long and has a knurled collar on it slides along that key way all along the power feed shaft.it has an internal key way. this meshes with the lead screw 1-1 and slider allows you to pull it out of mesh the lead screw is just used as a dedicated screw cut only even though it is rotating in mesh.I have no guard on mine ad the 20 tooth lead screw gear had been removed came in a smal. box of bits with the Gt Scot.the lead screw as you have seen and mentioned has a round pin hole drilled in the lead screw.One would arseume [that word ]that the round pin acts as a shear pin.I wonder as been noted that these lathes have an appetite for gear dentition[too many mar's bars] the gear quality as too has been noted has porosity on the castings that would not be detrimental to the gears integrity.
Re the gap or non removable in your case.if you remember i noted that the rack seemed to go past.the normal gap. this gap am sure was butchered out of my bed as the marks on it was considered that this was due to ''prangs'' and abuse that this machine has suffered.It now falls into place with other ''d's in on the case.It appals me to see the demise of these once well thought out and accurate machines.Usually government in wartime seem to purchase a machine tool of quality and these machines saw service with our armed forces ww2.
On another bit of trivia Hercus lathes 9'' were fitted to the rear of a 3/4 ton land rover across the rear of the tray for field use by armourers in field workshops late 1960' - 70s era.Mostly used for ''foreigners'' but very useful for the facility in the field.
One of those lathes was purchased by the previous owner of my S B W lathe Smith Barker Willson.lathe.It was brand new in the box grease proofed and preserved for storage. Sadly the man didnt get to use it much as he was terminally ill at the time. Was purchased by an engineering studentfrom Melbourne. Missed that 1 by 2 weeks.

in the next few weeks will be making those 20 teeth gears you will need 5 min 2 for lead screw pshaft.2 for the tumblers and 1 for your gear set.
I do not have a quadrant plate steady or fixed steady ball turner or thread indicator.It is hoped to raise mine up 2 inches for its fitment to my old touring coach. want to take the shed with me if it happens travelling.
Also there was no face plate either but will adapt one. Re the spindle is hardened and dynamically balanced i found only .001'' wear with and oil clearance be ok. Ewan does mighty fine work on his Mars and gives encouragement to ''get er done'' K fenner. cheers John.

On checking the knurled gear on the power shaft my count came up with 25 sorry my blue it wasnt till I held them against ea other for sizing so it will be a 25t you neeed to mesh with the 20 t on the lead screw Cheers John.

** UPDATE **

It's been well over a month since I've posted anything, but there has been progress behind the scenes. I'd finished disassembling the bed, headstock and apron, but then I had to go out of town for work at short notice and didn't have a chance to post the progress.

I've done all that today, as well as moved the website to a different domain and re-organized it a little to keep the page size down to a reasonable level.

The new website is http://rand.nqmp.org and the latest update is on page http://rand.nqmp.org/restoration/5-5-inch/dismantle-3

I'll go back through my other posts and update the URLs.

Edit: It appears that I can't edit my old posts. Oh well, hopefully people will start reading this thread from the end or not give up in disgust when the old website is non-existent.

Cheers, glen.

How are you going with this?

hi all,

absolutely new to this stuff.
been working on cars forever and a bit of woodwork
but always been interested in machinery
I came across this mars lathe about a year ago and i am ready to slowly start reserecting/restore it

I looked for serial number yesterday after reading this thread.
Mine is "H7"

I take it thats an early model

Will get photos soon, but it looks to be in fairly good condition comepared to some pictures ive seen on here, so im a bit lucky.

Dan