Thread: Machining a Cast Wheel?

Originally Posted by j.ashburn

Back to what i said on the first posting I did here.We are becoming a litigious country thanks to likes of some big ambulance chaser law firms that are evening news on the media.Is why I would eer on the fine side of''caution'' doing these jobs.There is always some ''bum'' out there will do these jobs for a quick quid with no care and responsibility.Worse off they usually are void of assets to claim should litigation occur.
.John.

So now are machinists taking the responsibility for the end use of a chunk of metal they machine. I find that is crazy and it means a machinist has to know/recognise any item that comes into the workshop, how it's used on the machinery it's fitted to and the potential negative results of modifications. It's impractical and just about impossible. Any legal ramifications should fall with the customer that brings the part to the machine shop. OK a motorcycle wheel is recognisable but many "chunks of metal" won't be, so what does a machinist do, interogate the customer for every part they don't recognise. That would be a quick way to go out of business, and then they can only HOPE the customer is telling them the truth.

No wonder our modern day stress levels are rising so much, whether you go to jail is getting more a matter of luck than anything else. I think any machinist who sets themselves up to be devoid of assets for this type of liability is wise, not sneaky, because modern day law and regulations do not always put responsibility where it belongs.

Keith.

Originally Posted by beefy

So now are machinists taking the responsibility for the end use of a chunk of metal they machine. I find that is crazy and it means a machinist has to know/recognise any item that comes into the workshop, how it's used on the machinery it's fitted to and the potential negative results of modifications. It's impractical and just about impossible. Any legal ramifications should fall with the customer that brings the part to the machine shop. OK a motorcycle wheel is recognisable but many "chunks of metal" won't be, so what does a machinist do, interogate the customer for every part they don't recognise. That would be a quick way to go out of business, and then they can only HOPE the customer is telling them the truth.

No wonder our modern day stress levels are rising so much, whether you go to jail is getting more a matter of luck than anything else. I think any machinist who sets themselves up to be devoid of assets for this type of liability is wise, not sneaky, because modern day law and regulations do not always put responsibility where it belongs.

Keith.

Professionals insure themselves heavily for negligence,indemnity.Some industries we associate with every day are too. Regulated trades are legislated and usually have their own integrated insurance poliicies as members of their associations.
In the trades we belong to is really up to the individual to make a choice when enterring into a 'contractural agreement with the customer. It is happening every second as we speak some where.We all do it unconsciously every time we make a purchase.
Of course we do have earn our daily bread but as quoted stress levels rise when we consider what or where the out come of that job we took on will occur.
Common sense is the only thing we can apply when assessing a job coming in the door.
Let me quote a true scenario.
A customer turned up once at my workshop with a rag full of contents in his hand. Placed them on the desk opened out the rag and there were these sleeve nuts. he asked ''have you got a 3/8 BSF tap? '' these threads are a bit ''daggy'' and i want you to run a tap through them''.I inspected the nuts and noticed that the threads were only about 50% of the original thread .I went and got the tap reluctantly after advising the customer that those nuts were sub standard.Returning with the tap I happened to ask what the nuts were off.He replied ''Oh they are the propellor nuts off my Tiger Moth [aircraft].An under the breath magpie call by me F.........aark.With that I promptly gave him the tap his nuts and said.''Go away I do not want to know Its your head your plane.kindly return the tap when you done.
So does this scenario play on our conscience after all we have our doors open to one and all. John.

I get the feeling I'm going to regret weighing into this. But any of us could be faced with this situation, so it seems worth considering.

If you're a machinist it's your job to know more than the customer. It's also your duty - in a common decency sense - to advise them if you think they're doing something dangerous. Where you go from there is a grey area. I have no idea of the actual legalities, but I would think if you did say it was dangerous and went ahead anyway it would look bad. If you played 3 wise monkeys I guess you could plead ignorance. But that's inconsistent with point 1. Dunno. Anyone willing to admit being a lawyer?

How often we get this situation.''Make us up one of these''. sample provided and no tolerance given.what do we do guestimation??
Had a farmer turn up here once with a tractor clutch plate.''make us a pilot shaft for clutch alignment''.made a nice sliding fit one and sent him on his way.Came back a hour later with the new clutch plate pilot shaft wouldnt fit.Red faced me takes a light skim on the shaft for a slide
fit on new plate.Lesson learned.
I am not a qualified legal practioner,just wanting to indicate to those who are interested that yes we are responsible for our actions and may contribute to the negligence of others [i tender this as food for thought] John.

Originally Posted by Bryan

I get the feeling I'm going to regret weighing into this. But any of us could be faced with this situation, so it seems worth considering.

If you're a machinist it's your job to know more than the customer. It's also your duty - in a common decency sense - to advise them if you think they're doing something dangerous. Where you go from there is a grey area. I have no idea of the actual legalities, but I would think if you did say it was dangerous and went ahead anyway it would look bad. If you played 3 wise monkeys I guess you could plead ignorance. But that's inconsistent with point 1. Dunno. Anyone willing to admit being a lawyer?

I only do machining jobs for beer (or wine). If anything goes wrong, my memory extends only as far as the beer lasted, no longer.

If things went well, my memory can be refreshed with more of the correct beverage.

This assumes the person wanting something done brings me all the material needed, drawing, etc. If I think what someone wants is stupid or dangerous, suddenly I'm too busy to get to it, maybe next year.....

OTOH I'll do things for people who will do things for me. Cash alone has no leverage.... well if it was a totally stupid amount it might. But probably not if it was something stupid or grossly illegal.

PDW

There are some points being brought up regarding the morals of continuing to do some machining when you think it could endanger others - I couldn't agree more.

But I am talking purely legally because too many times it's a grey area, and it can become more a matter of who has the smarter lawyer, not what is right in the situation at hand.

The worst part of it is that a machinist could be bankrupted just through defending himself in court (even if he is found not guilty) against a customer who is trying to pass blame onto him.

I wonder if a standard disclaimer could protect the machinist against idiot customers. Something along the lines where the customer signs a document saying the modification of said parts will not cause danger or put lives at risk, etc, etc. But like I said earlier, I bet doing something along those lines will lose you customers. Plus in todays legal world even signed disclaimers like that can be thrown out the window in court.

I say thumbs up to the smart business guys who don't legally own any assets. OK some do it for very corrupt reasons and I'm not including those, but in this day and age it's almost the equivalent of protective insurance.

Keith.

Yep disclaimers, motor racing tickets with the blurb on the back dont mean a thing in the hands of a good ''silk'' these days.
Another thing not to forget these questionable jobs mostly have been ''hawked around'' the district often before arriving at your premises.Even had ph calls from a related shop,''look out so and so is on his way.Happens up here in the bush, jungle drums work faster than Telstra up here. John.

Originally Posted by Bryan

I get the feeling I'm going to regret weighing into this. But any of us could be faced with this situation, so it seems worth considering.

If you're a machinist it's your job to know more than the customer. It's also your duty - in a common decency sense - to advise them if you think they're doing something dangerous. Where you go from there is a grey area. I have no idea of the actual legalities, but I would think if you did say it was dangerous and went ahead anyway it would look bad. If you played 3 wise monkeys I guess you could plead ignorance. But that's inconsistent with point 1. Dunno. Anyone willing to admit being a lawyer?

Well said.
To be quite blunt, when a "customer" approaches us with some hare brained scheme, do we really care greatly whether we make it happen or not? Yes there is pride and professional competence, but these will soon pale into insignificance when you are sitting in the dock!
To use this case of modifying a wheel as an example. The suggestions put forward by the OP, tell us one thing above all others - he has no idea. Sorry if that offends, but it is the truth. Because he has no idea, he approaches persons with knowledge, therefore the fact that we have knowledge also means that we also have responsibility. The definition of "Duty of Care" constantly refers back to "what a reasonable person would do". A reasonable person being a natural person of average intelligence.
In the course of my trade I have said NO on many occasions. Welding suspension components, making Aluminium Machinery Loading Ramps, Welding Aluminium Truck Rims and welding Forklift Tines come to mind. So it is with this job. If this bike is to be registered, (including RV), then an Engineers Certificate will be required. If for racing use then other regulatory bodies will be involved.
The idea of welding the mounts to add thickness has been put forward. Can the quality of the weld be verified and does the welder have a knowledge of the weld procedure required, if in fact the material/component is weldable.
There is a vast difference between "can be done" and "should be done". I for one would not put my house, reputation and freedom on the line for a project with so many unaccounted for variables. And no, the three wise monkeys defence will not work because there is clearly documented evidence of what the "customer" intends to do, plus, what else would a motorcycle rim be used for other than a motorcycle.
I have worked on components for aircraft, CAMS approved Roll Cages and pressure vessels, in every case there is a standard referred to, that standard and your compliance with it is your defence if it all goes pear shaped. So it also is with motorcycle wheels. Give me a document from an engineer or an extract from a recognised standard and I'll do it, if not - SORRY NO CAN DO.

Interesting stuff Karl.

So I wonder where a machinist stands when he is brought some already manufactured part, doesn't recognise it, and is asked to modify it in some way. He can ask the customer what it is for and let's say (based on what the customer explains) no future safety risk can be foreseen, or the customer just plain lied about it's use.

Is a machinist then potentially liable for any negative outcomes arising from modifications to the part. I mean there are an infinite number of machine parts that a machinist won't have a clue what they're used for. Under those conditions, isn't he nothing more than a machinist who knows machining, and is performing a machining service for the customer. A customer could lie about the parts use just to get them machined, then later (when an accident happens) claim he told the machinist the true use of the parts.

Keith.

I think you start getting into tricky legal situations.
It starts getting into what would the average person (perhaps machinist) think? Is that a part that is recognisably from a firearm that you are modifying or is it a block of steel? Is that an aircraft part that you are machining or a piece of Al that needs some extra holes drilled in it? (Added question - are the modifications sensible or will they weaken the part or allow a function that is not permitted)

Michael

Originally Posted by Michael G

Is that a part that is recognisably from a firearm that you are modifying or is it a block of steel? Michael

I have been asked to make silencers a few times now, each time I have told them to go to the gun shop and get them to do it, and each time they say, but they wont do it coz it is illegal.................der !

But I have modified quite a few M/cycle's, some for the road (engineers cert for these), some for the track, and never had any problems.

How many people in here have made their own saw benches, grinders, go karts ect ?

These days going for a drive in the car is like running the gauntlet, cops cameras and wombats everywhere but we all still do it.

Commonsense prevails.

You guys got me thinking about what I did when a job came into my shop like that. First thing was to ask as many questions as I could about the end use. It was pretty easy to suss out the rogues and deviants from a bit of interrogation .
Most times there was a better way of going about doing what they wanted, to get the same end result.
I also found that by giving a full description of the part and it's intended use (as I believed it to be) on the invoice took out a lot of grey areas should it attempt to come back and bite me.
I was once asked to make a gun silencer and after pointing out it was illegal, the reply was "good answer". Seems it was a policeman trying to find out who was making them.
I was also asked to make a component to fit the rotor of a helicopter. I just looked at him with my mouth open. He quickly pointed out that it wasn't a flight component but I still stood there with my mouth open until he went out to the car and brought back the drawings of grease plunger cap for pressing grease into the rotor bearings showing that this part is not on board during flight. "No worries" I said
I am confident that only fools will get into trouble.
I am also confident that gazza is no fool as after reading his posts I don't get the feeling this is something he woke up one morning with and said, "that'll work"
Just my thoughts and I am ready to be flamed

Phil

Hi Gents,am pleased that my input here has been thought provoking.I did post this in good faith to maybe reinforce that we now live in a new millenium.An era that is now fraught with danger and perhaps litigation lurking for the un wary.
I personally can tell you numerous stories of woe from 40 plus yrs.Added to that input 100 years of family experiences.
With out fanfare and being a relative ''newbie'' to this forum,was a personal thought to make comment.
All criticism will be taken ''on the chin'' Cheers all John.

Originally Posted by Steamwhisperer

I am confident that only fools will get into trouble.
I am also confident that gazza is no fool as after reading his posts I don't get the feeling this is something he woke up one morning with and said, "that'll work"
Just my thoughts and I am ready to be flamed

Phil

Yeah, agree the wheel job isn't unreasonable or stupid, just requires a pretty big machine to do it.

OTOH thinking of using a drill press as a milling machine does demonstrate a certain lack of knowledge of the use of machine tools and their limitations....

PDW

Originally Posted by j.ashburn

Hi Gents,am pleased that my input here has been thought provoking.I did post this in good faith to maybe reinforce that we now live in a new millenium.An era that is now fraught with danger and perhaps litigation lurking for the un wary.
I personally can tell you numerous stories of woe from 40 plus yrs.Added to that input 100 years of family experiences.
With out fanfare and being a relative ''newbie'' to this forum,was a personal thought to make comment.
All criticism will be taken ''on the chin'' Cheers all John.

I am not at the point of doing paid work with all my machinery but am working towards it. This thread could turn out to be a life saver down the track when I innocently machine / modify a "peice of metal". I will always ask the use of the part, put it in writing in the invoice, etc, and anything else I can to protect myself from litigation, and innocent people from harm. If the customer doesn't like that then maybe he has something to hide, so it's worth losing the business.

Anyone wanting gun silencers made would no doubt tell all his "freinds" about the dodgy machinist that will take on these jobs. Then you'd have all the rogues coming to your shop. The thought of an undercover policeman pretending to be a dodgy customer is also food for thought Didn't seem a good investigative technique by that policeman to let the cat out of the bag that he was an undercover cop. That sort of blew his cover and could have had one machinist warning other about him.

Your input certainly has been thought provoking and educational.

Keith.