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  1. #16
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    Default Iron Oxide!!

    Hi Phil, very impressive start. My interest in steam is medium, and practice limited to my donkey engine (when I was a kid). At the Jondaryan Woolshed (on the Darling Downs west of Toowomba), they have masses of old machinery - staggering really. Many are beautifully restored in your terms - 'working clothes'.

    Looking at the amount of 'rust' got me to thinking about the role of 'red rust' (Fe2O3) and some of my past experience with RAAF Aircraft Oxygen fires in the mid-80s. It does not bode well in the presence of aluminium aircraft. In a nutshell, the problem was 'rust dust' inside the steel oxygen delivery cylinders (separate long story) getting into the Aircraft Oxygen (for breathing) Systems.

    The solution was to treat the inside of the transport cylinders with phosphoric acid (during cylinder re-testing) to convert the 'red-rust' (Fe2O3) to 'black' rust (Fe3O4), since contamination by Fe3O4 was not hazardous because the 'iron' cannot be oxidised any further. Oxy or Arc slag is Fe3O4.

    Why am I dribbling on about this? Well the Fe3O4 is very hard - forms a protective skin like Al Oxide (anodising). There is every possibility that it can be kept in place in some of your heavily corroded spots, then machined or ground to suit. I could be off with the fairy's too!

    Regards, Daryl

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Latrobe Valley Victoria
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    4

    Default

    WOW this takes me back

    Had to know run up and shut down procedure of Weir pumps to pass my Boiler attendance certificate

    Had one where I worked but it just sat there never had the chance to run it up

    Wondering where you got it from originally

    Would love to get my hands on one
    Electricity:
    One Flash and you're ASH

  3. #18
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    Sep 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonl View Post
    This is awsome stuff!

    I gotta get myself a stationary steam engine as a do-er-up-er and have it chug away in my backyard!

    Can you run them off rabbits and stray cats? I got lots of them!

    Simon
    Hi Simon,
    if you can find one that runs off a naggin' missus and annoying kids you would have a fuel supply that would be never ending

    Quote Originally Posted by j.ashburn View Post
    Keep up the good work Phil, good to see your progress so far.A working model with re co internals be the way to go.Got a portable boring bar here if you need 1 easy just to bore a plate and stud hole for location at the bottom bar on top.A lot easier than saddling it up and line boring.
    Lots of meehanite here if you want for pistons and got a good source for rings. P/m me you got my number if you need any thing. Is good to see your progressive and informative blow by blow re animation. John.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarBee View Post
    Hi Phil, very impressive start. My interest in steam is medium, and practice limited to my donkey engine (when I was a kid). At the Jondaryan Woolshed (on the Darling Downs west of Toowomba), they have masses of old machinery - staggering really. Many are beautifully restored in your terms - 'working clothes'.

    Looking at the amount of 'rust' got me to thinking about the role of 'red rust' (Fe2O3) and some of my past experience with RAAF Aircraft Oxygen fires in the mid-80s. It does not bode well in the presence of aluminium aircraft. In a nutshell, the problem was 'rust dust' inside the steel oxygen delivery cylinders (separate long story) getting into the Aircraft Oxygen (for breathing) Systems.

    The solution was to treat the inside of the transport cylinders with phosphoric acid (during cylinder re-testing) to convert the 'red-rust' (Fe2O3) to 'black' rust (Fe3O4), since contamination by Fe3O4 was not hazardous because the 'iron' cannot be oxidised any further. Oxy or Arc slag is Fe3O4.

    Why am I dribbling on about this? Well the Fe3O4 is very hard - forms a protective skin like Al Oxide (anodising). There is every possibility that it can be kept in place in some of your heavily corroded spots, then machined or ground to suit. I could be off with the fairy's too!

    Regards, Daryl
    Hi Daryl,
    I was wondering what to do about removing the rust from the internals. A wire brush would be handy but nigh impossible to get in there. I am going ahead with the wire brush on the exteriors and might stick with the old standard of molasses and water for the internals unless someone knows of a some method to remove rust from the internals without eating the parent metal that won't take my skin off in the process .
    Thanks for the handy bit of info. Safely stored that one in the memory bank.

    Phil

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by nev25 View Post
    WOW this takes me back

    Had to know run up and shut down procedure of Weir pumps to pass my Boiler attendance certificate

    Had one where I worked but it just sat there never had the chance to run it up

    Wondering where you got it from originally

    Would love to get my hands on one
    Hi Nev,
    Aint it funny how the Weir pump was the standard for the boiler attendants ticket and yet I have never seen a boiler attendant run one correctly .
    This one I have has never had the pointers closed to expansion...go figure.
    Operated correctly they are just the sweetest pump that you can sit back and watch years of cool reciprocation
    If I had've been you I couldn't have helped myself, I would have run it just for the hell of it and probably got sacked as well
    I purchased this pump from Sam Feiglin at Feiglins sawmills in Nunawading Victoria, I think they were in Station St. Nothing there now.

    Phil

  5. #20
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    Todays plan of attack was to remove the top section (steam part) from the bottom section (water part) then disassemble the bits and remove the studs. Everything went swimmingly

    To remove the top section I needed to undo the bolts on the top of the side stays. These bolts have never been undone since the pump was built so I was expecting some difficulty. I wasn't disappointed
    I refuse to use heat when doing restorations so use patience instead, and knowing when to stop before something gets damaged .

    First step was to clean the rubbish away and give it a spray
    DSC_1018.JPG DSC_1017.JPG DSC_1021.JPG DSC_1020.JPG

    Next step was to gently and persistently apply pressure to the nuts ie a club hammer and a 3/4" breaker bar and socket. A dangerous practise as it can all go pear shaped real quick with this equipment, especially on old steel that has been subjected to heat and tension.

    Suffice it to say the nuts came off pretty well.
    DSC_1026.jpg

    I needed something to push the top off so hunted through the scrap bin and found a bit of pipe and a bit of thread, bent the cradle up and welded it to the thread.
    This is where the patience comes in. I pushed on one side while gently tapping the casting surrounding the side stay with the copper rawhide hammer (best bit of kit I own). After a lot of persistence it moved. I then went to the other side stay and did the same until that one moved. I then went back to the other side and repeated the process. I kept doing this raising about a 1/16" each time so as to not break the casting. Casting projections like this tend to break pretty easily.
    DSC_1032.jpg DSC_1033.jpg

    After seperating the bits it was an easy task to remove the waterside piston and the steam piston
    DSC_1049.JPG DSC_1052.jpg DSC_1056.JPG DSC_1060.JPG

  6. #21
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    With the steam piston removed I could get a better look in the steam cylinder and I gotta say 'I aint too disappointed'. Certainly repairable.
    DSC_1061.JPG DSC_1062.JPG DSC_1063.jpg DSC_1064.JPG

    Next job was to remove the crosshead pin (9). Believe it or not, it is supposed to pivot in its housing.
    I had to press it out and as I don't have a press I made this up out of a bit of running thread and other bits and pieces
    It worked but it fought all the way.
    Weir Pump Diagram.jpg DSC_0903.JPG DSC_1065.JPG DSC_1066.jpg

    Next thing on the agenda was stud removal. Another procedure that requires patience.
    My preferred method is using locknuts. This required cleaning every thread then locking the nuts on tight enough to not turn but not too tight that it starts to shear the stud.
    Once the stud moves I reverse direction then reverse again. Give it a spray and undo it a bit more then reverse it again. I keep doing this, undoing the stud a bit each time and have never wrecked a thread yet
    DSC_1071.JPG DSC_1067.JPG

    IIn the top of the steam piston is two tapped holes for lifting lugs to assist when removing the piston. Someone had broken the lug off and left the remainder in the piston. I guess they just hoped like all get out that it didn't unwind during slow running when a weirs pump starts its characteristic fine vibration. A very brave fitter.
    I didn't take any pictures of how I took it out so I will take some and post them tomorrow
    DSC_1098.JPG

    I also disassembled the pointers and took minimal pics. Will take more of them tomorrow as well.
    DSC_1095.JPG

    Anyways, the bits are ready for the wire brush to hit them in the morning and everything else is 'bagged and tagged'
    DSC_1104.jpg DSC_1101.jpg

    Phil

  7. #22
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    Hi Phil,
    Things are moving along.
    Whats the issue with heat?(a little gentle heat I am talking about, not oxy/acetylene red hot type heat)

    Stuart

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stustoys View Post
    Hi Phil,
    Things are moving along.
    Whats the issue with heat?(a little gentle heat I am talking about, not oxy/acetylene red hot type heat)

    Stuart
    Hi Stuart,
    just not a big fan with old castings that quite often are irreplaceable. Also you just never know how low the quality is and what they thought was acceptable 100 years ago.
    I find a bit of pressure and gentle tapping, creating a kind of resonance works well...ummm, well so far it has

    Phil

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by j.ashburn View Post
    Keep up the good work Phil, good to see your progress so far.A working model with re co internals be the way to go.Got a portable boring bar here if you need 1 easy just to bore a plate and stud hole for location at the bottom bar on top.A lot easier than saddling it up and line boring.
    Lots of meehanite here if you want for pistons and got a good source for rings. P/m me you got my number if you need any thing. Is good to see your progressive and informative blow by blow re animation. John.
    Hi John,
    I get the feeling, after removing the piston rings, that replacement ones are going to be needed. I might be calling on you about the portable boring bar but I think I might just get enough swing out of my lathe to mount the cylinder on the faceplate. I will try a hone first.
    Thanks heaps for the offer.

    Phil

  10. #25
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    wow those pieces suddenly look bigger once they are sitting on a "work horse" (unless there are some small work horses getting around now?)

    Stuart

  11. #26
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    Apr 2013
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    Default There Some Interest in THIS Project

    Hi again Phil, along with the others, watching with bated breath.

    With careful use of Phosphoric acid, it will not seriously attack the base metal. When the 'red rust' has all been converted to black, it will have done it's job. 5L of acid is pretty cheap at the local pool shop - at that strength, it isn't as hazardous as it sounds - like it won't burn your skin with with minor splashes like hydrochloric or sulphuric. It washes off/out easily.

    My old departed Dad (dinky-di blacksmith) showed me a method of unfreezing (threaded) nuts (and you have a few I see). Hold a hammer on one flat and tap (not hit) the opposite flat of the nut with a smaller hammer. If you have a second set of hands, then a drift + small hammer will work better. Do on as many pairs of flats that can be accessed. As soon as you can get it to move, then your method will work fine. The tapping method will reduce the risk of shearing the stud/bolt. The theory is that the tapping will slightly enlarge the nut.

    Good luck, I'll look in tomorrow nite for an update. Daryl

  12. #27
    Ueee's Avatar
    Ueee is offline Blacksmith, Cabinetmaker, Machinist, Messmaker
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    Default

    Wow....A couple of days without looking and look what can be done!
    Good work
    I'll have to look at the first pics again, but your description of the shuttle et all was rather helpful.

    I generally just use the hot air gun to heat stubborn bolts and pins, 100deg or less is usually all that is required. A few on the Queen needed the oxy and even drilling out.

    Daryl, I'll remember that tip of yours, sounds like a good one so long as you don't need to keep the nuts.

    Cheers
    Ew
    1915 17"x50" LeBlond heavy duty Lathe, 24" Queen city shaper, 1970's G Vernier FV.3.TO Universal Mill, 1958 Blohm HFS 6 surface grinder, 1942 Rivett 715 Lathe, 14"x40" Antrac Lathe, Startrite H225 Bandsaw, 1949 Hercus Camelback Drill press, 1947 Holbrook C10 Lathe.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stustoys View Post
    wow those pieces suddenly look bigger once they are sitting on a "work horse" (unless there are some small work horses getting around now?)

    Stuart
    Hi Stuart,
    20 years ago I had no trouble putting her under the bench yet when I went to bring her home I struggled to even stand it up. I reckon it must have grown somewhat, or I just got old . This size pump is the second smallest they make which makes the bits manageable...just. We have one at work that is 8' tall (2.4 mt) but some of them are 2 stories tall. Gotta say that nothing to do with steam is ever gunna be light

    Quote Originally Posted by DarBee View Post
    Hi again Phil, along with the others, watching with bated breath.
    My old departed Dad (dinky-di blacksmith) showed me a method of unfreezing (threaded) nuts (and you have a few I see). Hold a hammer on one flat and tap (not hit) the opposite flat of the nut with a smaller hammer. If you have a second set of hands, then a drift + small hammer will work better. Do on as many pairs of flats that can be accessed. As soon as you can get it to move, then your method will work fine. The tapping method will reduce the risk of shearing the stud/bolt. The theory is that the tapping will slightly enlarge the nut.

    Good luck, I'll look in tomorrow nite for an update. Daryl
    Hi Daryl,
    I very rarely come across nuts that have been undone inside of the last 50 years so I tap pretty much all of them. It depends on what level of Restoration. If it is Burra Charter then I use a bit of key steel over to one side on the flat of the nut so that any tapping will try and undo it. Sometimes a nut will come undone if you actually try and tighten it first. This also helps when you need to clean the thread as it is surprising how a little piece of 'history' stuck in the thread can make life very difficult. If I don't need to save the nuts then a good old light pein with the ball of the hammer works well but still damages the appearance of the nut. If all else fails, a bit of judicious belting with a hammer and chisel on the 'undo' side of the flat on the nut never fails...ever


    Quote Originally Posted by Ueee View Post
    Wow....A couple of days without looking and look what can be done!
    Good work
    I'll have to look at the first pics again, but your description of the shuttle et all was rather helpful.

    I generally just use the hot air gun to heat stubborn bolts and pins, 100deg or less is usually all that is required. A few on the Queen needed the oxy and even drilling out.

    Daryl, I'll remember that tip of yours, sounds like a good one so long as you don't need to keep the nuts.

    Cheers
    Ew
    Hi Ewan,
    thats quite a compliment. While I was working yesterday I kept thinkin 'gees I'm slack, Ewan would have had this finished by now
    I am also surprised that anyone can understand 'my' explanations. When you go for the Engine Drivers ticket you have to do the Weir pump again, (you have to know how it works for the Boiler Attendants ticket) and when you read the description in the book it really does your head in. I asked the tutor/teacher about it and he asked 'how many times have you read it' and I replied, "about a hundred times" and all he could say was "good, read it one hundred and one times and you still wont understand it". After he explained it it all made sense. After working with these pumps I find them pretty cool. I would have loved to have met the bloke that came up with that valve arrangement, he would have to have been a psycho.
    That tip of Daryls is a good one Ewan and the nuts can be used again. As he said it is very light tapping with the ball of the hammer to pein the nut slightly.
    I gotta tell you it is a whole new world of pain this restoration of heritage stuff but gees it's fun

    Phil

  14. #29
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    Today I intend to start cleaning some bits and check out machined faces for machining set ups. I get the feeling this pump has either had little use or it has had a re-fit at some stage as not one of the studs was wasted. If anyone is not familiar with the term 'wasted', it's when the studs have been eaten away with corrosion around the shank (the bit that doesn't have a nut on it or screwed into the casting). I only damaged two studs and they were the ones that came out of the steam chest and stayed with the cylinder casting. I had to use the stillsons as I didn't have a nut the right size to make a thread clamp, dammit!. And of course I don't have a die that big to make a new one so screwcutting it is. The piston rod (10) is stainless steel which was normally a special order if the pump was used with superheated steam. If this was the case they were also supplied with a mechanical lubricator, but there aint one . It did however, come with its original plunger lubricator (42) although it is missing the adaptor (43), fill cap, gland nut and spindle, all of which are easy to make. The cylinder drain valve (47) is also there but missing the spindle. Doesn't anyone put stuff back anymore!!.
    Anyways, better get out there and at it.

    Phil

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamwhisperer View Post
    I only damaged two studs
    Yes I'd noticed those. I try vicegrips with 1mm aluminium in the jaws first up............. but then with a first glance those studs could look like 1/4". On a closer inspection I'm guessing more like 3/4? Vice grips just arent likely to cut it lol
    There wouldnt be to many parts of that pump you could drop on your foot and smile about.

    Stuart

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