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  1. #1
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    Default DECKEL FP1/ RIKEN, (Vertical Head) - LEAKING OIL AROUND QUILL?

    Hi everyone, got bit of an issue I'm trying to resolve with the vertical head on my little RIKEN milling machine.
    I dissasembled yesterday, and have satisfied myself the leak emintates from inbetween the O.D. of the quill & head casting, rather than the quill & tapered spindle body (as I initially thought).
    The design being closed based on the deckel fp1 (Mk2), and possibly closest to the "Alexander master toolmaker", wondering if anyone familiar with the designs mentioned might be able to shed some light on:

    #roughly what measures were built in to prevent leakage i.e seals etc, (because I'm seeing a distinct lack of any, other than the close fit of quill which is possibly fine when new)

    #anyone know if the split clamping ring for the quill in the bore of the head can be removed? (see picture) or would it have been pressed/heated in?
    I see this as being the most definite remedy - remove & machine a recess for a lip seal?

    # what purpose does the bakelite ring/washer serve? it sits pretty freely atop the spindle, on the lock nuts responsible for thrust bearing preset.


    -Would be interested to hear any other imput as to how to go about fixing this-

    -also took the spindle apart and adjusted bearings, replaced the lubricating felts etc (pic is the before shot - hence why they look abit anemic and pretty scruffy-














    Anyway can provide more detail later, but just thought I'd get the topic up quick - to get some diagnostics people on the job

    THANKS
    Last edited by BrianLara400*; 14th Feb 2013 at 11:38 AM. Reason: CANT SPELL GOOD!
    WANTED: D1 - 8" Camlock either on a backing plate, or drive plate
    DECENT CONDITION, REQUIRED FOR A PROJECT - SEND ME A PM IF YOUR ABLE TO HELP

  2. #2
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    Default

    Glen,

    The Deckel forum on PM may also be a worthwhile place to raise your question. I know two FP1 owners, Greg and Alan, and I don't think either has performed a head dissection but they may know someone who has. They will both undoubtedly read this thread.

    BT

  3. #3
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    Thanks Bob, I did talk to Greg a few days prior - but as you suggest, he's had no reason to be inside the head of his FP1.
    Have put a copy of this over on the Practical machinist website (so fingers crossed)
    I'm hoping Frank, the german bloke I purchased the FZA & slotting tools off - may know a thing or too about it.
    WANTED: D1 - 8" Camlock either on a backing plate, or drive plate
    DECENT CONDITION, REQUIRED FOR A PROJECT - SEND ME A PM IF YOUR ABLE TO HELP

  4. #4
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    Ueee is offline Blacksmith, Cabinetmaker, Machinist, Messmaker
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    Default

    Hi Glen,
    You could try on this site: Fraiseuses - Usinages You have to get around the language barrier with google translate or by using google chrome or something with a translator but there is a fair number of FP1 owners. I got some invaluable info on my new Vernier mill from members of this site. This might be a good place to start: Le Club des FP1 : Fraiseuses - Usinages
    1915 17"x50" LeBlond heavy duty Lathe, 24" Queen city shaper, 1970's G Vernier FV.3.TO Universal Mill, 1958 Blohm HFS 6 surface grinder, 1942 Rivett 715 Lathe, 14"x40" Antrac Lathe, Startrite H225 Bandsaw, 1949 Hercus Camelback Drill press, 1947 Holbrook C10 Lathe.

  5. #5
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    Hey Glen,

    I've had no call to look before but there's a Deckel Yahoo group - dmog : Deckel Mill Owners Group

    Probably worth joining if you aren't already a member.

    BT

  6. #6
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    Default

    Maybe distantly related, AlfaGTA - Ross over on PM, did have a bit dissection of the vertical on a FP2 some time back.

    You'd have to troll through here to find the pictures now, since they appear to have expired over on that forum....


    Metalworking Drop Box

    Evolution of the Deckels, let alone the other near cousins, might make them irrelevant though.

  7. #7
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    I'd think that bakelite ring would be the travel stop for the quill in the top / up position. I think you can make out the mark where its been touching the drive gear / shaft.

    It's probably bakelite so that its a bit quieter than if it was from steel.

    Regards Phil.

  8. #8
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    With regards to the Bakelite, I think its merely a collar to prevent finger contact with the spindle top. There should be a matching cylinder to cover the quill drawbar. My earlier version lacks that feature, so there is a danger of getting caught by the rotating spindle features. I plan to make a shop-built version if I keep the FP-1

    I'm sorry that I cannot help about the oil flow rate. I do know that it is a total loss system, but Deckel only provided little oiling ports, so clearly they expected the oil to hang around for awhile before finding an exit.

    Greg
    It's all part of the service here at The House of Pain™

  9. #9
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    Hi everyone, thanks for your all your replies - I'll have to hit some of these other foreign forum's and user groups to do some research.

    In my haste to get it operational, and end the oil leak problem once and for all - I very nearly machined a rebate into the bore for a seal to act against the quill O.D, however a colleague pointed out the presence of the "rack" cut into the rear side of the quill.
    Said rack would have been absolute dynamite on any lip seal installed as it traversed up and down chewing the stuffing out of it, and only marginal kinder on an o-ring.
    Massively angry with myself that I nearly did, but very grateful I didn't


    -So back to the drawing board-

    I'd be pretty certain mine never had the draw bar cover, while I've come close to entanglement on it - I suppose if it were there there and the operator got into the habit of religiously putting it back on each time it may save a 12 mm spanner, or c-spanner being left in place (in this instance I'd be mostly worried about this happening on the horizontal spindle, as such a spanner could brace against the body and "screw" any number of things).

    Greg, did that cover simply "clip" on and was it interchangeable between the vertical and horizontal spindles?

    I think Phil is probably right about the collar being designed to butt against helical bevel gear in the uppermost position, have also heard it may act as something of a shield to prevent contamination of the oil in the spindle, by grease from the bearings in the top of the head (yes these compartments should be sealed from one another, but I've probably proven just how "sealed"anything is in this head)

    Will keep people posted on what I find re: the leakage issue.
    WANTED: D1 - 8" Camlock either on a backing plate, or drive plate
    DECENT CONDITION, REQUIRED FOR A PROJECT - SEND ME A PM IF YOUR ABLE TO HELP

  10. #10
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    Hey Glen,

    How much oil is leaking from the head? My fixed vertical head leaks leaving a pond of oil on the table. A ready source of oil to wipe the table and all the other bright bits down with. When I started using the Wanner pom pom oiler I realised how efficient it was at delivering oil as compared to the Alemite oiler I'd been using previously. Starting the mill resulted in everything in a two metre radius being lubricated.

    There was a comment made on either PM or the Schaublin Yahoo forum a while back about spindle bearing lubrication. Too much oil can lead to overheating. A leaking head may be a safeguard in maintaining the correct level of lubrication. The 13's head runs cool with a squirt of oil on the days I use it.

    The high speed head has a quill. I've never had it mounted long enough to see whether it too hemorrhages.

    BT

  11. #11
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    I too get that pool thing happening, however left unabated it will drain the head in a handfull of days.
    A little bit is probably a good thing, however I'd be guessing that to be excessive?
    The height of the screw on/off cap (rather than spring loaded ball type oiler) midway up the front of the head, really sets the max level of lubrication.

    Frank my german mate, I purchased some tooling off has put the question to some of the german forums.
    WANTED: D1 - 8" Camlock either on a backing plate, or drive plate
    DECENT CONDITION, REQUIRED FOR A PROJECT - SEND ME A PM IF YOUR ABLE TO HELP

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