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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    12

    Default Selecting a small Mill / Mill/Drill

    Hi All,

    I don't post much here, mostly just lurk. I'm looking at purchasing a small mill / mill-drill & would like other's opinions on the subject in general, and specific brands/machines in particular.

    A bit about me - I'm a patternmaker by trade, havn't worked in the trade for ~16 years, but I appreciate a good machine - I've operated machining centres with up to 4m beds, and learnt on a Taiwanese copy bridgeport - I wish I could get a machine like that now.....

    Anyways.

    I'm chasing a machine with ~500mm travel on the bed's X axis - this allows me to work on my Puegeot cyl heads & smaller engines. After this, everything else isn't a big deal. The RF30 style of machine is probably what I'll end up with - but I'd prefer a dovetailed column for obvious reasons, if one fits into my price range / size. A bigger machine would be great, but moving it around will be an issue - the RF30 size seems fairly portable. I'll mostly be facing & drilling alloy & iron castings, and some timber patternwork, with a bit of mild steel milling thrown in.

    Price range is about $1500 - which I know will get me a new chinese machine, but I'd probably prefer to hang out for a good 2nd hand Taiwanese machine.

    So - Thoughts? If anyone knows a good 2nd hand dealer in melbourne, I'd love to hear about it..... I've found one in a local dealer for ~$1000 that looks good - used mostly for slotting aluminium, so no heavy work.... But I'm not in a rush......

    Cheers,

    Rob.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    South Coast, Australia
    Age
    62
    Posts
    225

    Default H&F Sale - 22 March 2012

    Hi Rob

    H&F will be having a sale from 22-24 March 2012. Their HM46 dovetail mill will be going for $1,749 (normally $1,969) with the folowing specs (X) 475mm (Y) 195mm (Z) 450mm (see pg 22). A bit above your price range and a bit less x travel than you were looking for but maybe worth consideration.

    I'm also in the market for a larger mill (I've currently got a RF20 and a X2) and am looking at replacing the RF20 with a new or used dovetail mill with a bit more X travel and of course the convenience of a dovetail.
    He Who Dies With the Most Tools Wins

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    sydney ( st marys )
    Age
    64
    Posts
    4,887

    Default

    In regards to the dovetail,in other threads I have read that people arent able to take very big cuts with them,they seem to wobble and move,might be something to consider.
    Based on what I have read it would appear that the round column mills are a more ridgid set and capable of being worked harder than the dovetail type.
    Am not sure if opperator error or experience plays any part in it though.
    If by some chance it does it dosent seem to be admitted.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    12

    Default

    Thanks Guys. I too have noted comments about the round-column machines potentially being more rigid, which is interesting.... I guess it comes down to the column.... My old (1979) McMillan drill press uses a cast iron column, the casting is some 10-12mm thick, as opposed to the modern steel tube columns..... It's very, very rigid....

    The 500mm+ travel is pretty important to me - it means being able to do the job in one set-up. I agree though, the HM46 would be a nice machine......

    Blu-Rock - what do you use the X2 for...... I have to admit, they look like toys to me, but I'm interested to hear about them.... Make a good pattern mill, I reckon.....

    Rob.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Perth WA
    Posts
    526

    Default

    The round column can be a pain if your quill travel is shorter than your tooling requirment. eg hard to reposition it if you go from a small drill to a large one and you have to lift the head.
    Cheers,
    Rod

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    South Coast, Australia
    Age
    62
    Posts
    225

    Smile

    Hi Rob, the rigidity of round vs square columns is always an interesting discussion, there appear to be two schools of thought on this one. I supppose that the major variables are the wall thickness of the columns and their external dimesions. Here are two interesting threads here and another here.

    The X2 was the first mill I bought, new from an eBay seller. Being a machining virgin, it was a cheap way to get into the hobby. I've used it to make many smaller tools (as you do) and am almost finished making a small, single cylinder 4-stoke engine as well as plenty of other odds and sods. Yes, it's a bit of a toy and lacks both power and rigidity. Nevertheless, I was a good way to see if I wanted to get even deeper into my machine tool fetish.

    The X2's weakness is that stalls if you load it up too much and you can only take light cuts when drilling or milling steel. However, it's OK for aluminium, plastics and other softer materials. I plan to CNC it in the future. Like you mentioned, I too reckon it would make a nice little pattern mill. There is heaps of info on the web about CNCing them and this guy takes X2 mods to a whole new level.

    I bought the RF20 as part of a deceased estate lot that included a 12"x36" lathe (the lathe was what I really wanted in the lot) and heaps of tools for both the lathe and the mill, as well as a lot of other tooling and materials. The deal was too good to pass up.

    The RF20 (it's an older one made in Taiwan) is certainly rigid and I can take some pretty substantial cuts in steel and it has heaps of grunt. Like Rod mentions, the main issue with the round column is maintaining alignment if you have to move the head up or down when changing tools on a setup. There are several strategies to overcome this potential difficulty and there are many threads on this issue. I've read about modifications that can be made to these machines to more or less lock the head from rotating while still maintaining the capacity to raise and lower it. One method involves fixing the rack to the column and another uses an additional outboard column... all good food for thought. Using a laser fixed to the head and shining it on a datum line and other datum methods also are reported to work.

    I'm in no hurry to upgrade and would really like to get my hands on a used, mid-sized Bridgeport-style mill with a knee, something about 2/3rd the size of a BP would be ideal.

    Good luck with your purchase when you decide to take the plunge and be sure to post some of your work.

    P.S. gotta love the Pug... I used to have a 404
    He Who Dies With the Most Tools Wins

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blu_Rock View Post
    P.S. gotta love the Pug... I used to have a 404
    Cheers for the feedback all - esp Blu Rock about the RF20 - Obviously an RF30 would be simarlarly useful, just bigger..... I'll investigate the methods of aligning the head - That may well solve the issue for me, not that it would be a big deal for me anyways.... Unlike some people, for whom the machining is the hobby in itself - (and it's a noble hobby!) - for me it's merely a way to complete the work I wish to do..... It's 'Just' another tool for me..... So, rather than scale down the work to the size machine I have, I need to get a machine the size of the work......

    Blu - I have 2 404's - one for parts - and my current project is fitting a 2lt injected engine out of a 504 TI, plus 5-speed gearbox & aircon, to the good one..... Great cars.....

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Bendigo Victoria
    Age
    80
    Posts
    7,471

    Default

    Plus one for Pugs

    First car was 1955 Peugeot 203, leather lay back seats, great car.

    Graduated to a 404 also a fantastic car for its' time.

    Have also owned a few Renaults, a Dauphine Gordini and an R8 Gordini among them.

    Company cars from there on in.

    Oh yes, subject is mills.

    Have a DM45 dovetail mill (similar to HM46) with 2 hp motor, does everything I ask of it, which I guess isn't that much really

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    12

    Default

    Cheers, Big Shed!

    Just went out to Hare & Forbes, and also Asset Plant & Machinery. Bother decent looking machines, appear to be reasoable quality. The HafCo has 540mm travel & the Assest SM32 has 500, apart from that they're line-ball....... price-wise there's nothing in it. The saleman at Asset impressed me more, though, I have to say...... Not that that's important

    While at H&F, the HM46 was sitting next to the HM32... the base & column bolt pattern is the SAME!!!! So, a HM46 column & head would fit a HM32 base/table...... When I raised this with the salesman, he said it MAY be possible as a special order if both machines were from the same manufacturer (they appear to be), but didn't sound keen..... I didn't press him, as I'm still looking around, but when ready to go, I might go & lean on him to investigate...

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    moonbi nsw Aus
    Age
    69
    Posts
    364

    Default

    Just an observation!!!
    You have to give a big thumbs up to the members of this Forum!
    Here we have Wombat asking for detailed answer to a question and with in no time at all others have come in with just the details he needs to make an informed decision.
    The Forum is such a gem with its knowledge base and experience
    To coin a phrase from John Laws I think we all need a big "YEH" for the day.
    Good luck Wombat with your search for a new mill. I will be looking on from the side lines
    Just do it!

    Kind regards Rod

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    12

    Default

    Hmmmm, perusing the catalogues I brought home......

    I think I found my ideal machine!!!

    SM-MD45. Mill Drill. Steelmaster Geared Head Drive Mill Drill, Dovetail Guides, Digital Depth. - Asset Plant & Machinery

    A bit out of my price range & a smaller motor that the other two, but much more capability & I could always upgrade the motor if I got annoyed by it.......

    Ahhh, decisions, decisions.....

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Australia east coast
    Age
    71
    Posts
    2,713

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wombat200 View Post
    Hmmmm, perusing the catalogues I brought home......

    I think I found my ideal machine!!!

    SM-MD45. Mill Drill. Steelmaster Geared Head Drive Mill Drill, Dovetail Guides, Digital Depth. - Asset Plant & Machinery

    A bit out of my price range & a smaller motor that the other two, but much more capability & I could always upgrade the motor if I got annoyed by it.......

    Ahhh, decisions, decisions.....
    It's a 4 Morse taper spindle. What tooling are you planning on putting in there?

    I hate MT spindles for milling machines.

    PDW

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Bendigo Victoria
    Age
    80
    Posts
    7,471

    Default

    I bought my SM920V lathe from Asset it was a pleasure to do business with them. About the only thing I could say against their DM45 mill is that it comes with an MT4 spindle, much harder to get tooling for than, say, an R8 spindle.

    I bought my DM45 from Standaco in Nunawading, not only did I get the bargain of the year, it was again a pleasure to do business with them and have since bought other accessories from them. Good family business that actuall operates on the basis that customer servce is important not like some that are more like used car dealers. My DM45 came with an R8 spindle and a CMG 2hp single phase motor. I have since acquired a 2hp 3phase motor for it and a VFD so that I will have variable speed. It is however still awaiting installation, too many other things on my plate!

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    It's a 4 Morse taper spindle. What tooling are you planning on putting in there?

    I hate MT spindles for milling machines.

    PDW
    Alternating between a collet holder & a chuck, plus probably a face cutter in an arbour. Academic, really, as all machines at this end of the market (or at least the ones I'm looking at) seem to use MT Spindles - mostly 3's

    I can always sleeve MT4 dow to MT2 or MT3..... no biggie, really..... I have a fair bit of MT2 stuff already....
    Last edited by Wombat200; 14th Mar 2012 at 03:40 PM. Reason: extra reply

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Bendigo Victoria
    Age
    80
    Posts
    7,471

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wombat200 View Post
    Academic, really, as all machines at this end of the market (or at least the ones I'm looking at) seem to use MT Spindles - mostly 3's
    ............well perhaps not quite all

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