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Thread: Forked!

  1. #1
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    Default Forked!

    Might be a lateral thinker out there.

    Trying to replace the feed gearbox cover. Of course with 10 tight tolerance forks to align with the gears, this is proving more than a little tricky. Despite the best efforts of measurement (with the odd dab of contact cement) and using a borescope to get the bottom 5 into place, the top ones are refusing to cooperate. So, any thoughts on where I'm going wrong?

    Innards.



    Cover - upside down. The line of forks need to capture the gears on the upper shaft^^^


  2. #2
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    Hi Bill. Take a sheet of paper, press it against the gears. The oil will leave a print of the spacings.

  3. #3
    Dave J Guest

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    Could you measure how far the gears are from the side of the housing, then use those measurements from the side the cover to align them?

    Dave

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    Hi Hunch,

    I'm a little confused as to which is top and bottom and can only count 9 forks.
    First guess is you need measure the distance between the two biggest forks and then sen the gears that go in them that distance apart.

    Stuart

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan
    Hi Bill. Take a sheet of paper, press it against the gears. The oil will leave a print of the spacings.
    That was quick Bryan, should have stuck around a little longer....and like the thought process.

    The gears are the root of the problem, I'm using a hydraulic platform to lift the cover into position and using the existing pissy mounting holes and 6mm threaded rod in the case as dowels to guide in. Any slight misalignment and the forks will bump a gear along the spline and then it's re-measure, scrape the old sealant off, put new on and try again.

    I'm starting to think the factory must have used some sort of disposable jigging tool to be mashed up in the gears and dissolved in the oil, otherwise, Gino would have a serious drinking problem if he was expected to do this day in, day out! Might try moving the 1-10 and A,B,C,D wheels to the lowest position and see if that improves things.....not holding any great hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave J
    Could you measure how far the gears are from the side of the housing, then use those measurements from the side the cover to align them?

    Dave
    That's the method I'm employing now. There's about .5mm play between the fork and the gear, a slight touch or misalignment/measuring error will either push the gear along the shaft or rotate the free swiveling forks - with associated profanities, then I decided to add the contact glue. Maybe some on the gears mightn't go astray either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stustoys
    Hi Hunch,

    I'm a little confused as to which is top and bottom and can only count 9 forks.
    First guess is you need measure the distance between the two biggest forks and then sen the gears that go in them that distance apart.

    Stuart
    Yeah, I've stuffed that description up somehow, I'll blame fatigue for shifting 30kg of cast iron around all day.

    It's hard to tell, the 5 central forks are on a raised section of the casting. The others seem at the bottom in comparison when you're peering at the borescope screen. On the left hand side, there's two forks (again hard to spot from the pic, physically at the top of the case, when in position), you can see the reason why I went inside with the metal exposed on the far one....gear running on the outside of the fork, rather than inside. Funny thing, likelihood of me doing threading, near enough nought - should have let sleeping dogs lie.

    Bill.

  6. #6
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    Is that a Graziano lathe by any chance?, I suppose there's only so many ways to implement a lathe feed gearbox. I did a SAG 180 cover fairly easily as you remove the threading chart from the casting and it exposes those two small holes you see in one of your photos for limited access. Mine only had three forks in the middle instead of five selector forks but it was dead easy with the threading chart off to get access.




    Edit I see you already have the chart off. About all I can suggest then is to grease the gear shaft splines to make it harder for the gears to slide. Alternatively, fabricate a gear position "comb" from thin plastic sheet (Shirt boxes) or aluminium about 1mm or so thick: it would be a thin sheet rectangle coming in from above with slots cut into the bottom edge of it to hold the gears from moving sideways. As the cover gets into position you'd be able to jiggle the gears a limited amount and then once the forks engage, whip the comb out and tighten the cover.

  7. #7
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    Yep, it's a Graziano.

    Caught up with the toolmaker today, stretching his memory but he thinks he used a wood comb to hold the gears in position on his 14 a long time back...great minds think alike eh?

    Looking at your box, the lower shaft seems more or less in line with the upper and the gears size helps, so maybe there's a bit more room between the cover belly and the gear stack. Couldn't stand to work on it again today, maybe with renewed enthusiasm tomorrow, I'll make one up and see if it can go up from behind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunch View Post
    Yep, it's a Graziano.

    Caught up with the toolmaker today, stretching his memory but he thinks he used a wood comb to hold the gears in position on his 14 a long time back...great minds think alike eh?

    Looking at your box, the lower shaft seems more or less in line with the upper and the gears size helps, so maybe there's a bit more room between the cover belly and the gear stack. Couldn't stand to work on it again today, maybe with renewed enthusiasm tomorrow, I'll make one up and see if it can go up from behind.
    Well good luck, still it could be worse, I have a Bantam threading gearbox to pull apart to replace a bush and it looks like it'll be nightmare with it's tiny gearstick shifter and sliding parts.

  9. #9
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    Erm, are you guys aware that you know each other on PM? BillE, SAG180.
    Bill, is this the 210? How's it coming along? Any progress on the wipers?

    Lofty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    Erm, are you guys aware that you know each other on PM? BillE, SAG180.
    Bill, is this the 210? How's it coming along? Any progress on the wipers?

    Lofty

    Hence the need for a secret handshake

  11. #11
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    All these alter egos, gets confusing.

    The 210 just requires this completed - I hope - to be mechanically done. Did power it up via the motor and various DC transformers prior to this the other week. Headstock seemed quiet, although pretty warm to the touch after running at 2000rpm for 15 odd mins.

    Hopefully a mate will ring Italy tonight and get an electrical manual, which might speed up the rest of the process.

    The wipers came via Italy too, wasn't totally happy with the one made out of nylon for the cross-slide, and got lazy thinking about the other 4. Price wasn't outrageous - compared to Deckel Maho's quote at least.....and a few other bits were needed anyhow. I think they're nitrile or FKM molded to steel backing, no trash on the ways and the oil stays where it should!

  12. #12
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    A little update.

    Managed to somehow fluke getting the cover on a couple weeks back.

    Not plain sailing yet however, leadscrew doesn't want to co-operate. Gear at the right on the upper shaft has to go into the spline of the flange drive in the casing wall (have to squint!) to drive the screw, the larger gear next to it has the selector fork going onto it - shown in feed.

    I'm hoping, once the feed clutch is powered up, things will miraculously come good...but I suspect I'll be draining 30 odd litres of oil again before too long.


  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunch View Post
    A little update.

    Managed to somehow fluke getting the cover on a couple weeks back.

    Not plain sailing yet however, leadscrew doesn't want to co-operate. Gear at the right on the upper shaft has to go into the spline of the flange drive in the casing wall (have to squint!) to drive the screw, the larger gear next to it has the selector fork going onto it - shown in feed.

    I'm hoping, once the feed clutch is powered up, things will miraculously come good...but I suspect I'll be draining 30 odd litres of oil again before too long.

    Good luck with it, I hope it does go together ok. Who needs a course in meditation when you can do this instead for a hobby!.

  14. #14
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    No Gandhi here, tempted to grab the large sledge hammer and fill the skip with cast iron more often than not.

    Few small victories yesterday though so it's getting closer. Next frustration is this mess.....



    No wiring diagram for this model apparently after all - and the later version that is available has enough differences to be of limited use. The sparky friend of a friend who initially had a go, has cut out half the wiring and lost the on the fly speeds, spindle rotation, brake and carriage rapids control panel too to make it that little bit more of a challenge.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunch View Post
    No Gandhi here, tempted to grab the large sledge hammer and fill the skip with cast iron more often than not.

    Few small victories yesterday though so it's getting closer. Next frustration is this mess.....



    No wiring diagram for this model apparently after all - and the later version that is available has enough differences to be of limited use. The sparky friend of a friend who initially had a go, has cut out half the wiring and lost the on the fly speeds, spindle rotation, brake and carriage rapids control panel too to make it that little bit more of a challenge.
    There are times where it's just better to walk away and do something else for a while rather than do your nana.

    Ugh, I'm not saying all electricians are ham fisted but they are out there: I have a Blohm 600mm surface grinder I'm in the process of rewiring and fitting an electronics board for a friend. It had rubber insulation on a few motors that needed replacing and the thermal overloads had been bridged out by some idiot.

    The electrician called in to fix it intently studied the 1950's relay box while it was in operation. This is about 20 relays including special types like time delay copper slug retarded coils and various other types to get the timing and sequencing correct. It looks like a 1890's "step by step" style phone exchange.

    After 5 minutes or so he gets out a screwdriver and while trying to operate a relay out of sequence slips and stabs and mangles a set of relay contacts and there's a huge bang and a flash and the cross feed motor is now in need of a rewind.

    The electrician calmly gets off his back, off the floor, dusts himself off and calmly collects his tools and while walking out the door tells my friend there was no charge for the devastation he did to this machine.

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