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Thread: Metal files 101

  1. #61
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    I need to find a place to get some good files as all of mine are chinese exept for the 3 brand new Wiltshire files a scored from school. Every time i do some filing my dad corrects me and tells me the story of when he was an electrical apprentice in swtizerland and how they had to file a cube out of a piece or round bar.
    BETTER TO HAVE TOOLS YOU DON'T NEED THAN TO NEED TOOLS YOU DON'T HAVE

    Andre

  2. #62
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    You should be practiceing that and then file a square bar round.

  3. #63
    Dave J Guest

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    When I made the square key for my D1-4 I just filed the square onto the end while it was in the lathe chuck. It was quicker to do it that way than set it up in the mill at the time.
    As long as you have the right files, I find filing enjoyable sometimes, like that job. It turned out spot on by the calipers and square, but precision wasn't really needed.

    Practice make perfect, maybe try to make a round perfectly square to show your dad you have the hang of it? Remember to get a comfortable height vice to suit you, and keep your file flat while filing. If you round off the edges you will soon learn as it takes a lot of work to get it flat all over again.

    Dave

  4. #64
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    As Dave says practice makes perfect, If you are trying to file something flat, then it's important to be carefull how you apply pressure so that you don't round the edges, if you can get a job set up so that you can see the light reflecting off the part, then you can see more clearly where to apply pressure.

    Stuart, yes that's the place , that office area at the front of the factory had shelves full of boxes of files, there were lots of circular saw blades and jointer knives there as well.

    As far as cleaning and oiling, I don't do either.. too lazy I guess. Speaking of lazy, I probably should replace all the crappy plastic handles too... maybe tomorrow..

    In one of the scraping blurbs I read recently, it said to do the deburring with a dull file?

    Why dull?

    Regards
    Ray

  5. #65
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    Hi Ray,
    I didnt see those :'( , I did pretty will

    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post
    In one of the scraping blurbs I read recently, it said to do the deburring with a dull file?
    As I understand it, you dont really want to remove metal or scratch the surface, just knock down any burrs. I've been using an old double cut I polished up on a diamond stone, maybe a single cut would be better?

    Stuart

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grandad-5 View Post

    Now, can anyone go into just a bit more detail on the acid sharpening please?
    I picked up a bottle of vinegar.
    How long do I soak the file in it?
    Anything else I need to know?

    This thread has become something quite amazing.
    I thank all contibutors.
    Obviously I wasn't the only one wanting to learn the basics.

    Up until this thread, I looked upon files as just anouther consumable. Buy one, use it, abuse it, throw it out and buy a new one.
    This has turned my whole thinking around.

    Cheers
    Jim
    Jim I'd save that bottle for the salad and go down to the hardware store for some serious acid. I use hydrochloric acid, commonly available for cleaning render etc. If you haven't used strong acids before please do some research on the dangers and precautions needed before using.

    Pickling steel will remove the rust on old files VERY quickly, however it also slightly etches the steel and this is where the sharpening happens. You simply drop the file in the acid and watch it fizz and bubble. I'd first however clean the file of oil etc so the acid can do its thing. How long does it take? A few minutes all up I'd guess, but you'll have to be your own judge on that based on how it's going and the strength of the acid. However once any steel is treated this way and rinsed with water it will rust again almost immediately, so you will need to treat it with your preferred process.

    An alternative to hydrochloric is phosphoric acid, you can obtain that from larger after-market car spare parts and accessories stores. It's sold as a "rust converter" or similar title. I've used it for rust removal but can't for the life of me remember if I've used it on files. I would have thought so, but can't recall. Anyway the advantage of that type of acid is that it leaves a coating on the steel, hence why it's often used as paint/powder coat prep, but I can't remember how well it etches.

    Hopefully that helps restore some of your old files, but once again be very careful when using these acids.

    Pete

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete F View Post
    If you haven't used strong acids before please do some research on the dangers and precautions needed before using.
    I have, but more years ago than I care to remember.
    The only thing that sticks in my memory is never add water to it.
    It can react quite violently with certain other chemicals which of course I can't remember which ones, but they were all things you're not likely to find on any building site or home workshop.
    Burns a tad if you spill it on you but nothing dramatic. Enough to tell you you wouldn't want to splash some in your eyes.
    That's about it.

    However once any steel is treated this way and rinsed with water it will rust again almost immediately, so you will need to treat it with your preferred process.
    ok, well, this ain't gunna work then. My preferred method with stuff that acts the same...sand-blasting etc...is a coat of primer real quick. Obviously that's not a goer here.
    WD-40??? That would be what I would probably instinctively reach for.

    Thanks Pete

  8. #68
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    [QUOTE=Pete F;1380972]I too was taught to use a file card. I was also taught to put butter on burns too It just goes to show that just because we were taught to do something the "ol' timers" did, that what they were doing was in fact the best approach and not merely something they'd also been taught. Maybe it's just me, but having heard the logic behind it, I didn't find it at all difficult to imagine that indeed rubbing hardened card bristles along the cutting edges of a file's teeth probably wouldn't do them any favours.

    Well if you are rubbing the file card along the file then you are doing it wrong , it's supposed to be used across the file in the direction of the cut , and single strokes not rubbing back and forth.
    I've never heard or read any logic for not using a file card that makes any sense .
    If you think a file card will damage a good file , then go at the file with a HSS steel hacksaw blade and see if you can cut it . I've worn out more file cards than files.
    All my files are old, had them from when I first started my apprenticeship in the early 70's and they are still going strong ,they get a pretty good work out in my workshop.
    I have a big collection of files that I've gathered over the years working here and there ,I'll never wear them out , using a file card in my lifetime or whats left of it.
    I've never bought a file in my life ( apart from two Nicholson wood rasps) my employers supplied them over the years and I kept them when we parted company .
    For ripping down aluminium I have a big 18" Dreadnaught , a big ugly thing with curved cutting teeth across it , it shaves ally and brass like butter , I'll post a pic of it when I get the chance .
    Kev.
    "Outside of a dog a book is man's best friend ,inside a dog it's too dark to read"
    Groucho Marx

  9. #69
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    G'day Kev, as I said above, and you quoted, I used the card files along the teeth. Nowhere did I say I rubbed the card backward and forward so I'm not sure where you got that from. The card's hardened bristles rub along the file's teeth.

    All files eventually dull with use, just as the hardest and toughest carbide bits dull with use. As someone mentioned above, that's why new files are saved for the likes of brass and old files get used for steel. I did that for some time too but in the end my little "system" broke down and now I just have one collection of files. Again, I don't believe I would have said a card file "wears out" a file, correct me if I said that as it's not what I meant and I'm not going to go back and check for myself. What I expect I would have said is that a card file dulls the teeth. The bristles of a card file are hardened steel (at least they should be). A file has hardened steel teeth. Even rubbing along the teeth, the bristles aren't going to go perfectly parallel down the centres of the teeth, they will be at various angles and some will rub along the tops of the teeth, much like a hardened burnishing tool may rub along a wood scraper's edge. Except these little "burnishing tools" aren't polished smooth, they are rough when seen under magnification. If you don't think that will dull some otherwise sharp teeth, then knock yourself out, personally I can easily see how that would damage sharp file teeth and so no longer do it. Mind you, many of my files aren't 40 years old and are therefore sharp

    I've never heard or read any logic for not using a file card that makes any sense .
    Hopefully that logic does now make sense Kev. I'm not interested in an argument over it, heck you can use an angle grinder to clean you files for all I care. However that's the logic and hopefully I've described it clear enough. There is a world of difference between a file that is worn out and a file that is dull, although the former will also clearly also be dull. If somebody doesn't have sharp files to begin with then go nuts, you're very unlikely to be able to tell the difference as they're already dull, but that doesn't mean they're badly worn. I will NEVER wear out a file, not in several of my lifetime's. However I DO buy new files and know it's easy to dull one, so I do what I can to keep them sharp.

    Pete

  10. #70
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    I thought I'd report back with the end result for myself and my files.

    Following advice I've received here, I moved all my files to another, larger drawer and lined it. Still to come is some nice little timber dividers. But for now, they don't move around and aren't banging into each other.
    Attachment 184379
    I mentioned earlier that I found some NOS 8" Pferd files for 10 bucks each.
    I had intended to find another 2nd cut 10" file, but I tried some cleaning vinegar on one that I already owned but figured was past it's use by date. It came up a treat so I no longer feel any urgency to buy any more.

    I was going to get some hydrocloric acid, but since I had the vinegar here already, I figured it was worth a go first.
    I was so impressed with it, that as an experiment, I picked up a piece of really rusty steel and left it in the bottle overnight.
    Went out this morning, pulled it out and this is what I found.
    Attachment 184380
    To say I'm impressed is an understatement.

    Only thing left to do is get some decent handles for the files I have, and again due to this thread I looked on Amazon.
    Can't see what I want at a price I can afford just yet, but I'll keep looking.

    Lastly, I learnt here that something I've been doing is all wrong. I've always worked a file like sandpaper. Back and forth. Never realised that action was buggering my files. Hopefully I'll get a lot more life out of my investment in future.

    So, thanks everyone.
    I'm one very happy camper.

  11. #71
    Dave J Guest

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    Good to hear the vinegar worked and saved you a few $.And it looks like they have a nice place to be stored.

    I have never tried vinegar even though I suggested it, but after seeing your results I will be trying it out on some of my brand name files.

    I picked up some Aldi files, they are nothing great but OK for breaking edges. The only reason I bought them was for the soft grip handles which are yellow and black from memory. When I looked around at the price for handles, these file sets added up to much less, and you get a file to use and throw away then keep the handle for one of your good ones.

    Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Q View Post
    Dave...I wouldn't let them sit overnight. I have used citric acid in a bucket of water...let em sit for about 20 minutes, neutralised in baking soda/water, blasted dry and oiled. Its a great way to get another go out of old files...
    I often "sharpen" files by leaving them in vinegar for up to 24 hours. Post treatment is very important. I wash them in clean water three times and spray them with wd40.
    Jim
    Well proportioned women live longer than men who comment on it.

  13. #73
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    "Breaking Edges".... Is that the term used when you want to clean off the curls left from the chop saw?
    That action makes up 95% of my file usage. Thus my choice for second cut 10" files. Most of the other 5% would be cleaning up a weld after using a grinder.

    Aldi files eh?
    Good idea. I think an Aldi catalog just arrived. Must have a look.

    Oh, and take note it was cleaning vinegar. Not only much cheaper but I would assume stronger as well.

  14. #74
    Dave J Guest

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    The Aldi ones come around regular, they have a nice soft grip handle on them. I think a pack of 5 or 6 was about $17, so thats only around $3 a handle.

    When I said breaking edges thats what I meant, and I find the cheap ones work fine for this job as long as there sharp. And if they happen to be around when welding and get a splatter on them, it's not like they are expensive ones.

    I just have the Aldi ones hanging on the back of the bench, that way my son leaves my good ones alone.

    I don't want to mislead anyone, and I am in no way saying Aldi files are great, but they do work good for general work like breaking edges after grinding etc, they come in a variety of shapes (square, round, flat, etc) though the round is too course, and you get a good soft grip handle for your quality files when they are dead, or just use the handles and give the files away.

    Thanks for the tip on the vinegar.

    Dave


    Dave

  15. #75
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    Hi All

    I have sent an email to Noel Liogier, asking him to post into this thread, and I think he will have some interesting things to observe. Even though Liogier is mainly known for their superb hand stitched rasps (these days), the company's backbone is milled files......

    Cheers, FF

    PS - don't be surprised if he pours alkaline all over the idea of acid cleaning/sharpening!
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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