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15th Jul 2011, 08:34 PM #16Intermediate Member
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Hi Steran50 I missed your post while I was writing my last reply.
Interesting that you are also advocating a large mill since the HM50 is about $4,000 while most of the lathes you mention are less than that.
As I said to Peter F this is not what I was expecting, can you elaborate on the suggestion please.
I think I had most of your tooling on my list but I don’t have it with me just now.
Thanks
Dennis
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15th Jul 2011, 08:56 PM #17Distracted Member
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15th Jul 2011, 09:29 PM #18Most Valued Member
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My objections to the drill/mill machines are as much personal as based on specifications I'll freely admit. After all a lot of CNC vertical machining centres are glorified bed type mills of this breed. The turret mills nearly all have riser blocks available for them if you need more Z axis space, incidentally.
The H&F HM46 is a 3MT and I'd rule it out for that alone. As I've said I would not willingly have a Morse taper mill and I do speak from experience.
The M1605 is in my opinion a lot more machine and it is an ISO 30 taper. Yes, it's 2X the weight. This is a problem you need to deal with once (your heirs get to deal with it the next time). These machines can all be disassembled & moved in pieces then reassembled. Using it is an issue you face every time.
I admit to bias. My first mill was a small horizontal about this size; I bought it over 25 years ago. I added a vertical head to it and used it for years until I bought a B/port and put the horizontal mill back to its original configuration. I still have it & use is as my gear cutting machine. When I bought the B/port I had to buy a ton of R8 tooling because the previous mill was MT3. The R8 taper was a lot better but the 30 or 40 taper is better still.
Whatever, the table travel and total length is important to consider. Put a dividing head on and there goes 100mm minimum. Add a tailstock and there goes another 100mm. Put a chuck on the DH and there goes another 75-100mm. If there are coolant trap pockets in the table reduce the effective length accordingly. What's the longest shaft you want to hold between centres or in the DH chuck and can you get it under the cutter for the full travel you need? This is more important than the type of machine.
I've always bought used machinery FWIW.
PDW
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15th Jul 2011, 09:41 PM #19Intermediate Member
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Can someone with experience check my figures please.
I was tryig to caculate how much of the vertical height is taken with the various bits and pieces on a mill before the work piece is included.
Assuming a rotrary table with either a vice or chuck on it would take about 250mm.
Assuming the longest 'thing' mounted in the spindle would be a moderate size drill in a collet and allow 150mm from the spindle to the bottom of the drill.
This means that I take 400mm off the spindle to table measurement to determine the max size of the work piece can protude above the vice or chuck.
Am I totally wrong here.
Thanks
Dennis
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15th Jul 2011, 10:16 PM #20Diamond Member
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HI,
My Lathe suggestions were based on a Number of Factors : Weight, Swing over Bed, Swing over Gap, Spindle Bore, Speeds. The Titan TL250V is at the bottom of Choice, because of its 26mm Spindle Bore however it does have the best Speed Range being Variable Speed. If You are going to do a lot of small stuff,but some big stuff as well then I would push You torwards the AL-336. The AL-336 has a good size Spindle Bore, Distance between Centres is good, Swing over Bed and Gap is good and it has some extra Weight to help dampen Vibration,
I have not reccomended AL-340A, because it is a Centre Lathe, its Heavy, although it has a good High Speed it only has 8 Speed Steps (someone is going to say You could put a Variable Speed Drive on it - yes, but that is extra Cost which could be spent on Tooling. If You are going to make Model Engines I don't believe that You want a Centre Lathe.
Choosing a Metal Lathe is a Frustrating Task, I know I spent Months doing research and asking questions both direct to Hare & Forbes and on this Forum choosing Mine. My choice was a AL-340A, but the Transport Company dropped it and it was stuffed. When they Paid Hare & Forbes for a replacement Lathe for Me, the AL-960B with DRO was on Sale (after the March Sale last Year) at a very good Price. So I Paid the Extra and Bought the AL-960B, I don't regret My decision to Buy a different Lathe.
About My Milling Machine Suggestions, I have a DM-45 R8 Taper basically same as Hafco HM46. The HM50 or HM52 would be My next choice, but My optimium choice would be a Bridgeport Style Turret Mill. The Dovetail Mill/Drills are good for Hobby Use, they have good Spindle to Table clearance, very affordable. Their downside is they aren't very heavy, the head takes a while to re-align, they lack in Speed and Number of Speeds.
The HM50 however is heavy so vibration is damped out more, the Head has a worm screw enabling quicker alignment, more versatility - Head can tilt left & right, slide back & forth, Head can swing over the table either left or right.
If You are after something that is going to give You plenty of Spindle to Table clearance then I would have to push You towards a Bridgeport style Turret Mill. I would imagine though that a Riser Block could be put onto a HM50 though. Are You just looking at New Machines ?.All The Best steran50 Stewart
The shortest way to do many things is to do only one thing at once.
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15th Jul 2011, 10:54 PM #21Most Valued Member
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Hi Dennis, it seems there's actually at least 2 of us who are suggesting the same thing, but of course I can only speak from my own experience.
With all these machines the weight and expense goes up exponentially. I can only go on what you've said you want to make, and as I mentioned many people build live steam engines on little Myfords or similar, they're quite a small lathe. If you go for a bigger lathe you will of course get a bigger swing (and also spindle bore, something that's rarely mentioned but in my opinion much more useful), but you'll also get a more rigid machine and a more powerful motor. That may be important for a commercial business but is definitely in the "nice but not essential" basket for home use, especially for clock making!
On the other hand if your mill is not big enough things will simply not fit under it or on the table. You will be shocked at how the headroom gets eaten up once you start adding various pieces of tooling and fixtures, never mind the part you're actually working on!!! It's the same for the table size, a small table can be an exercise in frustration. Not really a problem if all you're doing is working from a vice, but it definitely is once things get more creative. The rigidity in a bigger mill will be noticeable just due to the nature of the cuts compared to a lathe.
It's said that the lathe is the king of the tools and I'd certainly support that, personally I spend 90% of my time at the lathe and maybe 10% at other machines. That will of course depend on what you're making, for some people that will be very different, however there is a lot of turning involved in both clock making and steam. Rather than a large lathe, I would suggest you lean far more toward a better quality lathe even though it's smaller. If, on the other hand you said your interests were of rewiring electric motors or something completely different, I'd probably suggest the reverse, ie a big lathe and a small mill, but that wasn't what you were indicating you were interested in.
This is definitely an area where bigger is not necessarily better for the work you're wanting to do. Of course if you can have both, so much the better, but if so be prepared to pay for it!
Hopefully that makes things clearer.
Pete
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16th Jul 2011, 04:33 PM #22Most Valued Member
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No, you're pretty much spot-on. That's why I emphasised Z axis travel as one of the factors to consider.
There are other tricks you can do with a turret mill, like bolting stuff to the edge of the table and moving the head out over it. You can increase the effective X axis travel as well - at the risk of a slight 'step' of course depending on how good the machine is. You can't do either with a bed type mill. With a horizontal/vertical mill like the H&F HM52 you can mount pretty big stuff to the horizontal spindle and use it like a big faceplate lathe for those odd jobs. Fabricating a riser block out of some heavy plate & pipe or RHS wouldn't be hard either for extra Z room.
As I've said machine mass is your friend - once you've got it where you want it. I do realise you've said this is an issue for you but it's worth some creative thought before making a final decision on what to buy. Plywood & timber make good temporary hard ways over grass etc, you could build an inclined ramp over the wall, whatever. I've moved a B/port with 42" table through a normal width doorway without taking the table off, all by myself (trick I picked up off of PM incidentally).
PDW
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16th Jul 2011, 04:39 PM #23Most Valued Member
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I'd agree. I do the vast majority of my lathe work on a 10" swing, 20" between centres variable speed lathe fitted with a collet chuck. For milling, by preference I use the Bridgeport as I can leave a vise set up and still have room to put a rotary table on for a quick job.
PDW
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16th Jul 2011, 07:55 PM #24Distracted Member
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16th Jul 2011, 08:39 PM #25Diamond Member
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HI Bryan,
I assume You are refering to Me ?, well My Name is Stewart not 'Rob'. The Lathes that I have suggested are Typified as Bench Lathes. Here is a Link to a Description of Bench, Engine and Centre Lathes Lathe (metal) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .
From what I have seen in the Past and present a Bench Lathe is a Lathe that can be Mounted on a Bench and this Lathe can still be quite large. A Centre Lathe appears to start at 1000mm between Centres and is quite Large and Heavy (too big to be put on a Bench). An Engine Lathe well thats a Hard one, I have seen what I would call a Centre Lathe labelled as an Engine Lathe. Though typically an Engine Lathe seems to be the really Large Lathes at least 1500 mm between Centres and with at least an 80mm Spindle Bore. A lot of old Lathes seem to get called Engine Lathes too and the typification seems to vary from Country to Country.
What I would call a bad Example of a Bench Lathe is the Hafco AL-336 why, because it has a Footbrake. You are hardly going to Mount that Lathe on a Bench. I hope this answers Your Questions.All The Best steran50 Stewart
The shortest way to do many things is to do only one thing at once.
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16th Jul 2011, 10:37 PM #26Distracted Member
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Stewart, thanks for clarifying that, and my apologies (again) for goofing your name.
I would suggest 'engine lathe' is an obsolete term that we needn't be concerned about. The distinction between centre lathe and bench lathe could be a bit blurry. But I didn't intend to get into a debate and I certainly don't want to derail Dennis's thread. (Hurriedly checks name - phew!) (I don't get why people have to be all Secret Squirrel about their names.)
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16th Jul 2011, 10:53 PM #27Diamond Member
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HI,
That's all right Bryan, I don't want to get into a Debate either. The Term 'Engine Lathe' is still quite commonly used Today for example You will see it stated on this Website ESP Machinery Home Page . As You said though, we don't need to worry about Engines Lathes as they are out the category that Dennis is looking at. Secret Squirrel - Yeah I guess some People just like to be anonymous, I don't mine People knowing My Name is Stewart.All The Best steran50 Stewart
The shortest way to do many things is to do only one thing at once.
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17th Jul 2011, 03:47 PM #28
Hi Dennis,
I doubt I can add much more to the recommendations that have already been posted, but here are a couple of things that you might not have considered.
You will find that once people know you have a lathe and a mill, there will be odd jobs mysteriously landing on your doorstep, sometimes it's handy to have that extra capacity or versatility. Remember you only have to install it once.
The other recommendation I will add, is that once you start looking, machines often turn up in the most unlikely places, A good second hand mill, or lathe, will often come with tooling, that get's bundled into the price. If you buy new, then the tooling is all extra cost.
I don't know if you have 3 phase or not, but sometimes second hand 3 phase machines are good value, and nowadays easy to convert to VFD operation. Don't restrict the search to single phase machines.
You are getting in at a good time, the A$ is high, and there is plenty of reasonable quality tooling available via the internet at good prices. There's also plenty of good quality advice and help available from the internet..
Regards
Ray
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17th Jul 2011, 11:04 PM #29Intermediate Member
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Thanks very nuch everyone, plenty to think about especially the idea of a 'big' mill.
Next move is probably to join one of the clubs and talk with other builders and see where that leads.
If somone I trust recomended a second hand machine I would probably go that route otherwise it will be one of the asian jobs.
I have been looking at ebay and grey's online but there are not many machines from Brisbane and I definately won't buy sight unseen. Also I don't have the knowledge to appraise a second hand machine without assistance.
Sorry no 3 phase. I got this house built about 6 years ago and got the electrician to prewire a circuit to power the shed and it was only a couple of years later that I found out he had used 2.5mm (I think) cable and I am limited on what I can run at the same time.
Thanks Dennis
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