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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    Melbourne, Victoria
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    45

    Default how to cut teeth in a hand saw?

    Hi there,
    I have been starting to make some handsaws but don't know how to cut teeth? do I send it to a saw doctor or do it my self how?
    Regards Ben
    Regards Ben

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
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    Melbourne
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    2

    Default

    Ben,

    Check out this link: The Backsaw Project | Norse Woodsmith

    NWW

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
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    Perth WA
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    Default

    Hello Ben,

    Back in the dark ages when Curtin Uni was WAIT, I was a student there studying three dimensional design which for me and and one other bloke in my year, was furniture design and making. This bloke, Chris Robertson, was a carpenter and joiner by trade, having done his time with the Department of Housing and Works(?) building housing for Aboriginals out the back of Kalgoorlie.

    Chris had an old bloke show him how to sharpen a saw. He filed off all the teeth so he had a straight edge then using another saw as a rough template, marked off the teeth which he then filed to shape with a triangular file. He then set the teeth with a saw set.

    Hell of a way to learn. I did not go to to this extreme but with Chris's guidance, I did learn how to not only sharpen, but to change the way the saw cut by changing the hook and set of the teeth.

    I had been building a bench back in 1984 and I needed to cut a number of deep finger joints for the tail vise. My tenon saws were not deep enough so I took one of my Disston hand saws out to a saw sharpening service. The saw was a 5 point rip, I wanted it recut to be a 10 point rip saw. When I picked it up it was sharpened as a 10 point cross cut. Rather than around, I bought it home and refiled all the teeth to a rip configuration. It worked extemely well. My eyesight is rooted now so tackling a saw sharpening job would most probably not be something I would bother to undertake.

    You used to be able to buy saw sharpening jigs to aid with the alignment of the file.
    You may find something on Ebay.]

    Good luck
    Bob.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
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    Default

    Hi Ben,

    Probably get more info if you posted the question in the hand-tools forum.

    Start with a template of the number of teeth per inch, you can get paper templates, I posted links in the hand tool forum to a pdf

    I use a hacksaw blade of appropriate ppi taped to the saw plate to file the starting notches.

    A detailed explanation of all the steps would take several pages to describe, but here is the short version.

    1. File the starting notches from a template.
    2. Shape the teeth with whatever rake angle you choose. Depends on whether it's rip or crosscut, and how agressive you want the cut.
    3. Set the teeth. (less is better generally) for green timber more.
    4. Joint the teeth. Just till you get tiny flats on all the points.
    5. Sharpen lightly, to **just** remove the flat.
    6. Test cut and lightly stone the side it cuts towards.

    For crosscut, you need to insert an extra step, that is to file the fleam after setting.

    If you google saw sharpening you will get several years worth of reading. Just about everything you need to know is here.

    Welcome to Vintage Saws!

    Hope that helps
    Regards
    Ray

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Alexandra Vic
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    69
    Posts
    654

    Default

    Shopnotes (January 2010) had an article on making a backsaw. For sharpening they developed a jig that clamped the blade full length between two peices of birch ply. This jig has a lead screw assembly made from allthread mounted to the side and below the blade blank which was used to set the pitch advance between teeth.

    The sharpening file was partially set in a block of wood. This controls the the cut angle and depth of cut for the teeth. A wooden carrier slides long the clamp section of the jig, connected to a nut on the leadscrew, and has a slot for the block mounted file. In use, the system is fed to the position for a tooth, and the file given a few passes until it no longer cuts due to bottoming in the sliding guide. The lead screw is then advanced to the position for the next tooth and the proccess repeated.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    Sydney
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    Default

    I'm not sure if it's still the same now, but certainly up until a few years ago at least, the first project for full-time students at Sturt School for Wood was to make a brass backed saw from saw saw plate. So to answer you initial question, yes you can certainly do it yourself, but it does take a while!

    Pete

  7. #7
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    Nov 2008
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    Perth WA
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    Default

    Pete,

    When they made the brass back was the brass slit with a saw or folded as per old saws? I would be keen to hear about the entire process.

    Bob.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    Sydney
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    Default

    Yep, the brass back was a slit. I haven't done the course myself, but have met the guy who was running it a few times and he's shown me some saws. His argument is a well tuned brass back saw will cut under its own weight so all the user need to is simply guide the cut. He gives a demonstration where he's moving the saw but looking up and talking, the saw will cut vertically under its own weight. On the other hand something like a Japanese saw has little weight in the back so needs to be very slightly thrust down. I've always thought the ultimate would be to modify a Japanese saw blade and make up an otherwise conventional looking western brass back saw; has the weight, is sharp with a disposable blade, has a conventional handle (easier to orientate vertically), cuts on the pull stroke so is rigid, and is thin kerf. Not much more to wish for I'd think!!!

    Pete

  9. #9
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    Jun 2008
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    Victoria, Australia
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    Default

    Hi Bob, Pete, Ben...

    I organized a couple of group purchases of slit brass and saw plate over in the hand tool forum, I got the brass slit by a friend with a better mill.





    We did 20thou slits in 900mm lengths of 3/4x 1/4 brass, biggest problem was tracking, the solution was to get a good quality slitting saw.

    Never missing a chance to gloat here is a Kenyon inspired dovetail saw, I made last year.


    I did write up a tutorial on how to make handles if you are interested you can find it here..
    Saw Handle Making Tutorial

    Still haven't got around to writing up the tutorial on how to cut teeth..
    But there are plenty of on-line resources already..


    Regards
    Ray

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    South Australia
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    Default

    As said above it is just a matter of cutting the teeth with a file, it will take a remarkable amount of time I did it once many years ago, the I discovered that a saw doctor who has the correct machinery can do it in about one tenth the time and 100 times more accuratly than you will ever do it by hand, so my answer is take it to a saw doctor.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    Sydney
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    Default

    Very nice Ray!

  12. #12
    Join Date
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    Default

    S..T! I've dribbled down the front of my flamin shirt!! That is impressive.
    A veritable work of art!!

    Congratulations Ray.

  13. #13
    Dave J Guest

    Default

    Very impressive Ray.
    Just think all that hard work will be no more when the cnc is up and running.

    Dave

  14. #14
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Perth
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by China View Post
    As said above it is just a matter of cutting the teeth with a file, it will take a remarkable amount of time I did it once many years ago, the I discovered that a saw doctor who has the correct machinery can do it in about one tenth the time and 100 times more accuratly than you will ever do it by hand, so my answer is take it to a saw doctor.
    I've made a few hand saws from scratch and it is surprising how little time it takes to file the teeth. It takes me about the same length of time for me to shape the teeth on a 12" tenon saw as it does to convert a cross cutting to a ripping chainsaw chain for my 60" Chainsaw bar (192 cutters). I like hand sharpening CS chain and spend a lot of time doing it so filing the teeth on a tenon saw is no big deal.

    Accuracy is no problem with a simple indexing jig like this.
    My set up can mark and start the following TPI with surprising accuracy.
    24.0, 21.6, 19.6, 18.0, 16.6, 15.4, 14.4, 13.5, 12.7, 12.0, 11.4, 10.8, 10.3, 9.8, 9.4, 9.0 plus a lot more less than the last number.

  15. #15
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    Default Nothing to do with metalwork

    Ray,

    There is a chance that I will be instructed to post this in another category of the WW forum but you've got me all fired up now after looking at your beautiful little saw and your handle tutorial.

    Twenty years ago, I started work on a cheat's version of an A17 Norris smoother. I was working as a tutor at Curtin University in the School of Art and Design and had access to a rolling mill, a Tig welder and a Myford ML7 in the Jewellery workshop. The bronze sides and base of my ersatz version are welded together rather than cast as per the original.

    The little plane has sat neglected and unfinished for two decades for want of some appropriate timber infill. Originally I wanted to use Brazillian rosewood which was impossible to obtain, let alone in the sizes I required. I had previously purchased some "Amazon" rosewood from Trend Timbers which I used to restuff a post war A5 smoother. Checking was quite a problem and the sawdust, a potential killer.

    I did find and buy some beautiful cocobolo locally but the sizes available were too small for the smoother. I bought a chunk of maracaibo boxwood, again from Trend, but it looked like a pallid block of butter when it arrived.

    I'm most probably wrong, but the handle on the little dovetail saw looks a bit like figured walnut. Norris did use walnut for stuffing. A bloke over here had an A50 with walnut handles. The walnut would look good against the bronze of my plane.

    So, can you recommend anyone that might have some nice walnut? I would need a piece roughly 7" x 1" by about 8 inches long for the rear handle and side cheeks and a a block 3"x 3'' x 3" for the front handle.

    The final photo is of a rosewood filled steel bodied Norris A5 smoother for those that are wondering what the hell I've been writing about.

    Bob.

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