Thread: Schaublin 13

Hello Everyone,

This is the continuation of a thread started in the Hercus Area where I had mentioned that I was trying to devise a fine feed mechanism and clutch for the vertical feed on my Hercus mill. Phillip (Metalman) said that he had a Schaublin mill, which utilizes spring loaded dog clutches on the table feed handwheels, and so as to not bore the Hercus owners, we will further our discussion here.....

Hello Phillip,

I was thinking that the VFD could be set at it's maximum output and left and I would use the mill's variable speed control.

Another option to the VFD is a second hand ASEA 2hp single phase motor that the seller wants $250 for. It has a couple of capacitors the size of coke cans attached, which would need to be repositioned but I think that it would fit in the space vacated by the Oerlikon motor. I need to check the shaft and keyway sizes on the Oerlikon first. There is about 12mm difference in the centre heights of the two motors. Swapping the motors might necessitate the making of a new drive pulley.

Work beckons so I will post again tonight.

Regards Bob.

Hello again Phillip.

I would imagine that after owning your mill for eight years you are very familiar with it. I was fortunate to obtain the original 1953 Schaublin Servicing and Operating Instructions (82 pages) when I purchased my 13. If it is of any use to you, I can send you a copy on a CD.

I would love to obtain a copy of any literature you might have. It seems that any documentation pertaining to Schaublin mills, the vintage of our's, is thin on the ground. An original 1950 Schaublin machine tool brochure sold on Ebay yesterday for $114.49US. It contained 8 pages!

My machine came with a number of accessories and amongst them was a set of collets that looked like W20's but had an internal M12 thread. I think they are P20 collets but Schaublin no longer list them in their collet catalogue. There is a drawing in the Instructions showing a cross section through the vertical head. The same drawing features a cross section through one of these collets. The spindle has an ISO 30 taper, and if the head is rotated 180 degrees, the drawbar can be inserted into the end of the 30 taper to hold these collets in place at the other end of the spindle. This set up provides a valuable couple of inches of space between the table and cutter if using small end mills. Ingenious.

The machine came with a pair of optical measuring devices mounted over the X and Y scales. They were manufactured in Paris by the firm Optique et Précision de Levallois and each is illuminated with a little torch bulb powered via a transformer. What's interesting is that they measure in thousandths of an inch and the rest of the machine is metric. Must be because we were still Imperial back in '62.

There is a lot more I need to write about but I'm starting to fade. Using one finger to type is too hard.

Let me know if you want the Instructions.

Regards Bob.

Hello Phillip and those who may be interested,

The attached photos show the P20 collet and it's insertion in the "opposite" end of the vertical head, and the OPL measuring devices mounted over the distance scales.

There is information on the net regarding OPL but it deals mostly with their range of photographic products. I've found nothing in relation to these devices. If any readers have experience with them, I would be keen to hear from them.

Regards Bob.

Bob, looks like a vernier scale, but what's with the lens in the centre? Does it just magnify the coarse scale?

Hello Bryan,

The attached photos may help to describe how the things work. The lens focuses on an illuminated portion of the graduated distance scale . The resultant image is projected onto the screen. The two parallel lines are etched onto a transparent slide that moves laterally across the screen when the large external bezel is rotated. The bezel is graduated in .001" with a .0001" vernier. The photos show a roughly focused, projected line on the screen. If the projected line is centred between the two etched lines and then the bezel is rotated ,say .040" the etched lines move away from the projected line. Traversing the table by means of the handwheel until the 3 lines are realigned results in the table moving .040".

Focusing the lens is by means of a pair of eccentric mounts that are difficult to adjust.
Increasing the wattage of the light bulb may improve the image on the screen. Thankfully, they are a standard E10 threaded bulb that fits in a torch.

Not the most lucid explanation so hopefully the photos will provide some clarity.

Regards Bob.

Hello Bob,
You have made my day, I have 3 of those brochures, 2 from 1950 as per the ebay sale and one from 1961. I have scanned the 1961 one, 29 pages including the cover, and sent you a PM so that we can organize a transfer. Thanks for the offer of the instruction book but I have the one that came with my machine, I am only the second owner so not too much has gone astray. My machine is number 206, which raises the question, is it the 206th since production started or 206th produced in 1955? Could you look on the first page of your 1953 book and let me know the number there?
Regarding your motor issues, I have found occasionally that the machine's lowest speed is sometimes a little too fast, if you could organize a VFD to give a reduced bottom speed without motor cooling issues it would be an advantage.
The optical measuring devices look like an interesting piece of kit, they are described in the brochure along with a large number of other desirable goodies.
You said your machine is metric, does it have metric dials etc.? I sold a near new, metric Arboga style vertical mill to finance the purchase of the 13 which is unfortunately set up with imperial dials etc. I miss the clearance under the head of the vertical mill but in most other respects the 13 suits my purposes better.
Regards, Phillp.

Hello Phillip,

The machine number is 537 and the BL number is 115401 as per the manual. I need to check some photos I took a year ago when I first saw my mill which was one of a pair of Schaublin 13's. I have a photo of the nameplate on each machine . I know the other machine was made in 1953. I will confirm that the numbers match the manual.

Regards Bob.

Hello Phillip and those who may be interested,

Amongst the box of "junk" that I had to take if I purchased the machine was this attachment. I initially thought it was a collet closer but it is a sensitive drilling attachment that fits the standard vertical head. It is more complex than the drilling attachment shown in the Schaublin 13 catalogue. The fitting I have is missing a return spring and I am uncertain as to if it's just a simple compression spring installed on the quill under the lever or something more sophisticated. Any ideas?

The spindle nose accepts E20 collets. I have read elsewhere, that an E20 nut can be replaced with an ER20 version enabling the use of the newer collets. I have a set of imperial collets for this attachment but no E32 collets for the ISO30 collet chuck fitted to the head. I am hoping that a similar nut substitution will work.

I will post more photos later.

Regards Bob.

Hello Phillip and Others.

The right hand handwheel impacted against something more solid prior to my purchase resulting in a bent forked shaft, two destroyed ball bearings, a damaged bush, broken handle and the graduated drum locking mechanism, snapped in half.

The forked shaft connects the handwheel to the end of the table traverse screw and facilitates the quick removal of the entire handwheel assembly. The removal of the assembly allows for the installation of the automatic drive gear train required when the universal dividing head is mounted for a quick bit of spiral milling.

I machined a new forked shaft from a piece of 1045 bar. One end of the bar is threaded internally and externally. The internal thread, M8 x 1.25, was hand tapped. The outside thread, 14 x 1.0, I cut using the never previously fitted, metric transposing gears on my Hercus lathe.

I bought a new pair of FAG bearings from an Ebay seller in England.

The replacement bush was turned from a piece of phosphor bronze bar. The bush enables the handwheel to both spin freely when the table power feed is used and to slide, allowing the engagement of the dog clutch when hand feeding.

I still have to repair the handle and locking mechanism (not shown in the photos). Should keep me busy for a while and further prevent me from painting the house.

The photos below show the sequence of assembly and the bent shaft and handle.

Regards Bob.

What is the max speed of the vertical head on a -13?

That sensitive drill gizmo is very nice, as are the optical scales.

I am about to start restoring my 1948 Deckel which appears to be not quite so refined as the Schaublin, but still a very nice little machine.

Greg

Hello Greg,

The standard head maximum speed is 2000 rpm. The high speed head runs from 170- 6400 rpm.

How about some photos of the Deckel. I guess it's an FP1?

Regards Bob.

I need to get in uncovered as it is number 4 in line for restoration. It looks like crap, but runs well. A high speed head is the only "standard" option I'm missing for mine, so I'll need to scheme about how to get faster spindle speeds.

And yes, its an FP-1 of the change gear vintage. Plans to modernise it are already fermenting.

Greg

Hello Greg,

What was standard when someone purchased a Deckel back in the forties? I have a downloaded FP-1 catalogue, unfortunately in German, that looks to date from that period. The array of accessories is vast. Was the vertical head fitted as standard?

The 13 came with a fixed angular table and the horizontal spindle headstock, with a couple of arbors and an arbor support as standard according to Phillip's 1961 catalogue. Everything else was deemed an accessory.

Have you ever had a look at Franz Singer's German Ebay store? It features mainly Deckel machines and accessories.He has a lot of little bits and pieces that seem reasonably priced. The more substantial accessories are a different story. At least you can get them. Schaublin mill accessories don't seem to exist.

If you do unveil the FP-1 at some stage, and you are armed with a camera, I 'd love to see some photos.

Regards Bob.

I'm pretty sure that Deckel sold the machines bare. Or at least Demco did. I think that's why you see machines with either a fixed or universal table but rarely both.

I bought this machine on ebay under the impression it was a 1966 build. After driving all the way to Kiama to collect it (hadn't had a good old fashioned road trip in a long time) I was initially disappointed to discover its true vintage.

After some wheeling and dealing we loaded it up. The clincher was the condition and the pallet load of extras.

It came with the horizontal, vertical head, slotting head, indexing dividing head with tailstock support, Wohlhaupter boring/facing head, collets (both Deckel and Clarkson). Horizontal arbor, some tools and manuals. Universal table.

I just bought some items from Singer a couple of days ago. I am still looking for the high speed head if I can find one reasonably, and a rotary table.

Here's the machine as it is currently. I'm trying to ignore it but spend at least an hour a day cleaning and thinking about the refurbishment plan.

Hello Greg,

Prior to obtaining the 13, the FP-1 was the machine that I hoped to acquire. There was always plently of information about them available on the net and if you were cashed up, you could buy one from the States or Europe. Have a search for a 13 on line and you wont find much. I've only seen two Deckels in the flesh, an FP-2 and a FP-4 NC. Both were impressive. The closest I had been to a Schaublin mill was the illustration in an old McPhersons catalog.

How do you reckon I felt when I stumbled across a pair of 13s in a showroom over here and then found out that they weren't for sale. After fourteen months and a number of visits to the showroom, I hauled the best one home with a box of "junk" consisting of the high speed head, the simple dividing head, tailstock and support, the neat drilling attachment, what looks like an unused arbor and arbor end support, a nice 4" Burnerd 3 jaw chuck for the dividing head and various smaller odds and ends.

The 13 is a beautiful piece of machinery but in my mind, no more or less than the Deckel FP-1.

Regards Bob.