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Thread: Fake relay's ?

  1. #1
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    Default Fake relay's ?

    Hi fella's, I have never heard of fake relays before but there you go, I went looking on the internet to try to find out why I am having problems with relays not switching off the load after switching off power to the relay coil, My first google search seemed to direct me to youtube vids https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...LY2NJ+problems of fake OMRON relays, my first thought was hmmmm...... ah so.... a relay is not a relay... we have fake and clone relays.. really? whodathunk...??

    So it looks to me like my Omroti relays are cheap copies of Omron relays?

    My theory is that the Omroti relay contacts are made out of chinese cheese metal and every now and then the contacts get a little weld on them that holds them together and leaves a battery charger running after the sun has gone down...grrrr... this means I pay for electricity. I give the stuck relay a wiggle and it disconnects the load and then seems to work as it should for a few days or weeks before sticking again, I have tried swapping them around and they all do the same thing.

    My question is do you think these relays https://www.jaycar.com.au/12v-dpdt-p...sort=relevance will be more reliable? If so I will get them.

    Any better ideas or thoughts or other relay suggestions much appreciated.

    These ones are LY2NJ 12v coil switching 240v 10a
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  2. #2
    BobL is online now Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    In 2017 I bought some Omron branded 240V/10A relays ($26 for a 10 pack) on ebay with a "made in Indonesia label" on them.
    Not sure if they're "fake Omrons" or "real but budget Omrons"
    Apart from the 2 I've used on motors (they're not really designed for this) they seem to be lasting OK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shedhappens View Post
    Hi fella's, I have never heard of fake relays before but there you go, I went looking on the internet to try to find out why I am having problems with relays not switching off the load after switching off power to the relay coil, My first google search seemed to direct me to youtube vids https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...LY2NJ+problems of fake OMRON relays, my first thought was hmmmm...... ah so.... a relay is not a relay... we have fake and clone relays.. really? whodathunk...??

    So it looks to me like my Omroti relays are cheap copies of Omron relays?

    My theory is that the Omroti relay contacts are made out of chinese cheese metal and every now and then the contacts get a little weld on them that holds them together and leaves a battery charger running after the sun has gone down...grrrr... this means I pay for electricity. I give the stuck relay a wiggle and it disconnects the load and then seems to work as it should for a few days or weeks before sticking again, I have tried swapping them around and they all do the same thing.

    My question is do you think these relays https://www.jaycar.com.au/12v-dpdt-p...sort=relevance will be more reliable? If so I will get them.

    Any better ideas or thoughts or other relay suggestions much appreciated.

    These ones are LY2NJ 12v coil switching 240v 10a
    Hi John, Guys,

    A ceramic capacitor with a value of 2000 to 5000 pf at 1 Kv wired across the contacts will reduce the arcing and subsequent sticking. But you will have to clean off the existing arcing damage first. Not a guaranteed cure but it will help reduce the sticking effect. Use 500 or 600 grit emery cloth to clean the contacts. Carefully unhook the spring so that you can get better access to the fixed contacts. I use a finger of shim steel with emery double sided taped to it, a bit like a thin nail file.

    I do this cleaning about every couple of years to the 3.5Kw storage heater thermostats. The contacts arc and stick together causing the heater to remain on ! Not surprising since they are over 40 years old and no spares are available any more.
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

  4. #4
    BobL is online now Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaronJ View Post
    Hi John, Guys,

    A ceramic capacitor with a value of 2 to 5000 pf at 1 Kv wired across the contacts will reduce the arcing and subsequent sticking. But you will have to clean off the existing arcing damage first. Not a guaranteed cure but it will help reduce the sticking effect. Use 500 or 600 grit emery cloth to clean the contacts. Carefully unhook the spring so that you can get better access to the fixed contacts. I use a finger of shim steel with emery double sided taped to it, a bit like a thin nail file..
    At work any sort of abrasive paper (even really fine grits) was considered a no-no for cleaning relays. Obviously it depends how pitted the relays are - if they are badly pitted no amount of abrasive will fix it. If they are are slightly damaged using a fine grit can probably be used first. However, thee way e were did it was to soak a strip of hard glossy paper (no loose fibres) with CRC OR WD40 and draw that once only through the relay. If needed repeat with fresh paper. When finally clean make sure theres no WD40 or CR left - use the same sort of paper with a bit of IPA or contact cleaner and blow or air dry after that.

  5. #5
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    Fake electronics components are very common now.

    Solid state relays can be particularly bad I believe. Lots of stories online of them blowing up.

    If you want genuine, you need to buy from a recognised retailer / electronics supplier.

    That said, I've used lots of generic stuff like arduinos and ESP32 etc that have been fine. Happy to pay $3-5 and take some risk instead of paying $30 per board

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    John,
    If I need genuine parts I buy from DigiKey or Mouser. Free (and FAST) postage from the US if you spend over $60.
    Chris

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    Thank you all for your replies.....

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Apart from the 2 I've used on motors (they're not really designed for this) they seem to be lasting OK.
    Bob what is the difference in relay type that makes one more suitable for electric motors?

    Quote Originally Posted by BaronJ View Post
    Use 500 or 600 grit emery cloth to clean the contacts. Carefully unhook the spring so that you can get better access to the fixed contacts. I use a finger of shim steel with emery double sided taped to it, a bit like a thin nail file.
    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    At work any sort of abrasive paper (even really fine grits) was considered a no-no for cleaning relays. Obviously it depends how pitted the relays are - if they are badly pitted no amount of abrasive will fix it. If they are are slightly damaged using a fine grit can probably be used first. However, thee way e were did it was to soak a strip of hard glossy paper (no loose fibres) with CRC OR WD40 and draw that once only through the relay. If needed repeat with fresh paper. When finally clean make sure theres no WD40 or CR left - use the same sort of paper with a bit of IPA or contact cleaner and blow or air dry after that.
    For touching up ignition points I use a diamond file followed up with a petrol rinse and a blow off with air, I don't too many these days but lost count how many I have done. Never done a relay tho....

    Quote Originally Posted by BaronJ View Post
    A ceramic capacitor with a value of 2 to 5000 pf at 1 Kv wired across the contacts will reduce the arcing and subsequent sticking.
    Thank you John, I think I might try the Jaycar relays first as they might be a better quality (fingers crossed) then if I still have the problem I will try the ceramic caps.

    Quote Originally Posted by pippin88 View Post
    Fake electronics components are very common now.
    I have problems understanding the mentality..... These counterfeiters obviously have some machinery and skills so why not go the opposite direction and build a better relay than the one that they are copying?
    Cheap and nasty products only get bought once as a rule.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by BaronJ View Post
    A ceramic capacitor with a value of 2000 to 5000 pf at 1 Kv wired across the contacts will reduce the arcing and subsequent sticking.
    John I thought while I am at it I will do the caps also, I had a look here https://www.jaycar.com.au/search/?q=...levance&page=0 as this is a store local to me, all the caps listed are rated 50VDC and nowhere near the value of 2000 to 5000 pf at 1 Kv, am I being a dumbo or do I have to look elsewhere?

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    I have problems understanding the mentality..... These counterfeiters obviously have some machinery and skills so why not go the opposite direction and build a better relay than the one that they are copying?
    Cheap and nasty products only get bought once as a rule.....[/QUOTE]

    The Fake ones are not exact reproductions. They may use a lower grade material for the contacts and such. To build high grade stuff often requires quality machinery. With a fake it does not matter if tolerances vary a bit or they have a high failure rate. Often what you pay for with the real thing is some sort of warranty, the development of the product and certification that it will work in an application and such. Think about a car imported to Australia, if it did not have to go through any compliance testing or have any warranty and back up support it would be much cheaper.

  10. #10
    BobL is online now Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by shedhappens View Post
    Bob what is the difference in relay type that makes one more suitable for electric motors?
    Most general relays can do electric motors but not at the general relay's usual full current rating
    eg the Omron 12VDC 10A G2R-1 relay - a general use relay is rated 1s;
    10A @ 250V and 30VDC for resistive loads
    but only 7.5A @ 250V and 30VDC for inductive loads like motors.
    Even the 16A version is only rated for 8A under inductive load

    To switch motors larger than ~2HP (especially under load) an electrical contractor should be used. I could go into when to use what, and wh,y but let me just refer you to this excellent description. https://springercontrols.com/news/contactors-vs-relays/

    I have used 10A relays on 3HP motors (my Table saw has one of the cheap Indonesian Omorons on it at the moment) but they generally don't last more than couple of years before they burn out. I keep meaning to install one of the spare contactors I have in my stash but as I said in my previous post I bought a 10 pack of the cheap Omorons for $26 so I'm working my way through this pack - I'm on my third one for this machine and still have about 4 left.

    I've bought the cheap Omrons to control VFD stop start switching on machines like my 3P 3HP WW bandsaw and the 1HP 3P GMF grinders. VFD control is around 10V and a few mA so mo problems but full discussion is probably a topic for another time.

    Then there are solid state relays but perhaps also topic for another time.
    For touching up ignition points I use a diamond file followed up with a petrol rinse and a blow off with air, I don't too many these days but lost count how many I have done. Never done a relay tho....
    That'll work probably because ignition points are usually a bit harder than relay points.
    Thank you John, I think I might try the Jaycar relays first as they might be a better quality (fingers crossed) then if I still have the problem I will try the ceramic caps.
    They should be better - if they fail early you can al least take them back
    I have problems understanding the mentality..... These counterfeiters obviously have some machinery and skills so why not go the opposite direction and build a better relay than the one that they are copying?
    Cheap and nasty products only get bought once as a rule.....
    You mention use in a "battery charging operation" - can you perhaps provide more detail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    You mention use in a "battery charging operation" - can you perhaps provide more detail.
    Bob my solar system inverter outputs 240v 3ph and the house is wired split phase, so the 3ph is divided into separate house circuits, as a result of this the total solar output is divided into 3 so I use a 20a and a 16a charger each on a separate ph so that in low light I have enough solar power to feed them. If one larger charger was used then it would need to be switched later in the day so it does not use grid power and on overcast days might not switch on at all.
    I have tried a couple of different circuits but currently I use a small solar panel that is wired via a resistance wheel (temporary until I am happy with start up voltage) to adjust the voltage to a relay that switches the charger relays on when enough power is being generated from the solar system and this also switches them off as sunlight dissipates. I won't go into why I am doing it this way but it works and it works quite well... The relay that is powered by the solar panel gets a bit hot so I have got a zener to fit to that when I get around to it.

    2 of the relays are remote switched from within the house to the 16a charger, No1 relay is for charger on and No2 is switched to an off peak timer.
    No3 is for the 16a charger and No4 is for the 20a inverter charger and these are switched by the small solar panel.
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    BobL is online now Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Thanks for the info. On the application like you describe I wouldn't be messing with cheap components.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Thanks for the info. On the application like you describe I wouldn't be messing with cheap components.
    Bob maybe these contactors would be a better choice https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/22372560...frcectupt=true what do you think?
    They are local also, the way things are at the moment I am hesitant to order from china.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shedhappens View Post
    John I thought while I am at it I will do the caps also, I had a look here https://www.jaycar.com.au/search/?q=...levance&page=0 as this is a store local to me, all the caps listed are rated 50VDC and nowhere near the value of 2000 to 5000 pf at 1 Kv, am I being a dumbo or do I have to look elsewhere?
    Weirdly, Jaycar don't seem to have them in their catalogue....
    Here is a link to some in Port Macquarie: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/363014562017 for $2.36 delivered..... or 5 for $5.40....
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

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