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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
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    Adelaide
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    Default Horizontal Mill Motor Size

    I am looking for a horizontal mill and currently am looking at 2. One is a smallish machine that is listed as having a 2Hp motor (Adcock & Shipley 1ES). This I can easily run with my phase converter but the machine is, well, smallish. The other is a Dufour 624 which is a much more substantial machine (and probably as big as a hobbiest would ever go?). It is listed as having a 7.4Kw spindle motor, a 2Kw feeds motor and a 0.15Kw coolant pump (10, 2.7 & 0.1HP). I have no idea if that original size motor is still in it but will assume it is.

    In order to run this machine I will need to trade-in and upgrade my 5.5Hp phase converter which I have been quoated at $5,000. More than the machine!

    Questions;
    1. Being listed at a 10Hp spindle motor presummably means it only runs at 10Hp when the machine is fully loaded (big cut, fast feed)? I have noticed that my 5Hp lathe motor only partically loads up the 5.5Hp converter when doing the majority of cuts so I assume a horizontal mill would do the same? This means I may possibly be able to run the big mill on my current converter?
    2. Is it feasible to consider down-sizing the 10Hp motor to make it phase converter friendly? Obviously this would mean the machine will not spit out large chips anymore.
    3. I have read that a second idler motor can be piggy backed onto a phase converter to increase its output. Has anybody done this? My supplier obviously wants to sell me a new PC rather than modify an existing one...
    4. I believe parts will be hard to find for the A&S? I would want a verticle head attachment.
    5. Are parts available for the Dufour?



    Your knowledge would be appreciated.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
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    York, North Yorkshire UK
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    6,444

    Default

    Hi Mk1,

    Quote Originally Posted by Mk1_Oz View Post
    I am looking for a horizontal mill and currently am looking at 2. One is a smallish machine that is listed as having a 2Hp motor (Adcock & Shipley 1ES). This I can easily run with my phase converter but the machine is, well, smallish.

    Your knowledge would be appreciated.
    THE 1ES is a nice mill ! I wish I could lay my hands on one.

    About the only comment that I can make with regard to the Durfor, is will your single phase supply support the load ? I suspect that it might not.
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
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    Geelong, Australia
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    2,651

    Default

    I doubt you're going to run that Dufour at full power, but you will run it happily on your existing phase converter if you use a 415v 3ph-3ph VFD to control the main motor. Main issue with a motor that size from a phase converter is the start current will suck the guts out of the converter.

    I've got a home brewed phase converter about the same size. It doesn't cope with direct starting the high speed (5HP) winding on my lathe - just too much inertia in the drive train and chuck, but is quite happy to run it if I spin it up first on the low speed winding (3HP).

    My new TOS mill has a 3kw spindle motor that I'm using a 415v 3ph-3ph VFD to control. Think I've got the ramp up set to 3secs - I don't think the phase converter even notices it start. I definitely don't hear it like I do with direct starting the lathe.
    With the VFD you can also put limits on the current etc.
    Depending on how the feed motor functions, you might want to put a VFD on that too. If it starts up disengaged then you mechanically engage the feed then probably no need. If its like my TOS and engaging the feed also starts the motor then a VFD would be useful.

    Just an aside with VFD control, I'd steered away from putting one on my lathe as I thought I needed to mess with all the existing control switching etc. On advice from Shedhappens on here, for my mill I left all that control stuff in place, and just used the output contacts on the main motor contactors to signal the VFD. Much simpler and works really nicely.

    The A&S looks like a really nice machine, but MUCH smaller (particularly only 10" Z), the Dufour is over 500mm Z travel
    A&S with a bridgeport head for the vertical would be nice combo. Use the horizontal spindle when you need to hog, and flexibility of the bridgeport head when you don't.
    Good luck with the choice

    Steve

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
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    Adelaide
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    Default

    I have 16mm2 wiring to my shed and a 40Amp breaker. I will need to investigate the limits of this.

    I was only aware of a VFD being used from 1 to 3-phase. I will do some research on 3-3 phase.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
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    Geelong, Australia
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    Default Horizontal Mill Motor Size

    Quote Originally Posted by Mk1_Oz View Post
    I have 16mm2 wiring to my shed and a 40Amp breaker. I will need to investigate the limits of this.

    I was only aware of a VFD being used from 1 to 3-phase. I will do some research on 3-3 phase.
    I’m similar, and 16mm2 is probably as big as what is coming in from the street - probably 60A supply from my “non-sparky qualified” experience. Practically, you probably don’t want to draw more from the workshop or you are likely to create issues in the house.
    40A gives you around 7.5kw which is a fair bit of metal removal!!

    VSD’s started off in industry as only 3ph/3ph as far as I’m aware. In the early days of using them domestically it was a case of powering a 3ph one from a single phase and having to get one that was around twice the power capacity as you needed so that it would cope with running from single phase.
    Guess what I’m saying is it’s very mature technology.

    Steve

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
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    Adelaide
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    Cheers Steve.

    I have not been able to find a wiring diagram for the Dufour 624 machine so I cannot tell if the spindle motor is direct on-line start or star-delta. I also do not know if there is a clutch on the spindle but I assume it would be. It is possible that the spindle starting load could be quite low depending on the above and that therefore my current 5.5Hp PC will be fine. Lathes.co.uk has a wiring diagram but it is 75 pounds!!

    I agree that my 16mm2 wiring should be able to supply sufficient for the motor (maybe marginal at full load but I will probably never do that anyway).

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    Potentially there’s also the option of powering one of the main motors from a VFD supplied from single phase.
    I definitely wouldn’t be lashing out and upgrading the phase converter up front without exploring all options. I’d be confident you’ve got enough power supply to practically run that Dufour, just a matter of how you actually go about it.
    Tis a big bugger though - makes my 1.7T TOS mill seem like a lightweight

    Steve

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