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26th Dec 2021, 10:17 AM #1Intermediate Member
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Tecmen powered faceshield vs 3M adflo vs 3M versaflo
I posted this in the WWF but figured its worth posting here too. I am after a PARP mainly for woodworking and the occasional welding too. It would be nice if there are filters for spray painting too not that I do much of that but if its a powered system might as well have it as Im not having to breath through those filters the pump is doing the work....
Anyone tried/seen the Tecmen PARP system?
Tecmen FreeFlow G10 PAPR Face Shield | First Class Welding Supplies
I think its new to the market and cheaper than the 3M units. The earmuff attachments for the Tecmen apparently arent assigned to Australia yet.
I think the 3M flows air from the forehead down, and the Tecmen flows at the mouth/nose area as the air is plumbed down the sides of the shield
Tecmen I think its easy to switch between faceshield and welding helmet
Also, what is the different between the 3M adflo and 3M versaflo? I dont understand why they have 2 systems.
The versaflo seems like you cant get the welding helmet, whereas the adflo seems like you can get both?
Versaflo kit with faceshield
Sydney Tools
Adflow kit with faceshield
3M Versaflo Shield & Safety Helmet M-307 | P2 Powered Air Respiratory — Welding Helmets Online
adflow kit with welding helmet:
Welding Helmets with Powered Air | PAPR | All Brands | Buy Online — Welding Helmets Online
Seems like the versaflo is mainly for air purifying only whereas the adflow is marketed towards welders but also can have faceshield only?
Also, there is a versaflo pump aimed at spray painting:
https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/...lo-systems.pdf
Unsure if that is just different filter or if it is in fact better sealed. It has yellow on some of the casing to indicate it
3M's website sucks
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27th Dec 2021, 01:28 AM #2
Versa is aimed at general head protection, its the new generation of the Racal system(they've been discontinued) they are a modular system designed to be adapted to many different industries and the adflow is pretty much a welding only system.
There's another mob called Gentex their system is called Pureflo, range goes as follows Pure Lite X Stream, PF3000 PAPR and ESM+Last edited by Harry72; 27th Dec 2021 at 01:41 AM. Reason: Added more info
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27th Dec 2021, 07:25 AM #3
No experience with Tecmen, but they do have a model which looks like a bit of a copywrite infringement on the 3M speedglas gear.
I've used speedglas for years, so I guess I know why people want to copy them. Whether they are just cashing in on aesthetics while skimping on function, I guess is to be seen.
3M is the parent company. Speedglas is the subsidary for welding protection.
Versaflo is the PAPR face shield range, Adflo is the air supply system.
Versaflo shields work with Adflo blower motors (the belt pack / unit)
Both systems work on providing positive pressure into the helmet - PAPR = Positive Air(Pressure) Powered Respirator - Neither are recommended for heavy solvents / confined space work - it's only working to filter the available air and pressurise the helmet so stuff doesn't creep in past your chin. For confined work, there is a 3M Adflo air compressor system which hooks to a air line, and has special filters for purifying air compressor air for human consumption.
If you were wanting welding lens with a face shield for non welding tasks, the G5-01 speedglas helmet can disassemble to both. Which may work out cheaper than buying a PAPR welding helmet plus a versaflo face shield. Also lots of other neat functions, but the adjustable airflow baffles inside may interest you by the sounds of it.
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27th Dec 2021, 10:59 AM #4Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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Just a comment on air flow. I would not purchase any air flow helmet unless a flow specification is provided - not that this means much because chances are they are measured to an australian standard, which may not be scientifically accurate but at least you can compare the same (possibly inaccurate) numbers.
To provide enough air flow so's not to create a positive pressure under the helmet, even for relatively moderately heavy breathing, only a relatively small flow is needed. The requirement for this is about 3 CFM.
The only face shield link from those supplied I could find that specifies a flow was the Versaflow (6CFM to 7 CFM) which, if it is correct, will be more than enough to maintain positive pressure.
However, depending on a bunch of factors, this flow may not be enough to cool an operator's head and/or prevent fogging.
I've done some air flow tests on my old Triton air flow helmet (5 - 8 CFM) tests and found that even 8 CFM is just not enough on a 25ºC day.
I've also sone a fair bit of spray painting under a filtered compressed full head cover/hood with about 8CFM air flow ~22ºC and I also found that quite warm.
I'm not sure what flow would be needed for grinding or other hot work, let alone on a hot day.
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27th Dec 2021, 11:14 AM #5
FWIW Adflo comes with a pea shooter flow gauge to test flow before use.
The blower motor also ramps up speed to maintain flow as filters become more clogged with particulate.
3M adflo meets AS/NZS1716 for respiratory protection, but not sure what that means in the big scheme of things.
My experience with weld fume is that it's an evolving part of workplace health and safety - we know it's dangerous, but workplaces are not mitigating the risk as they would for silica or asbestos, which can also cause various cancers. Minimum protection would be a P2 mask while welding. Realistically for the workers of the wood... P1 would be more than sufficient. Adflo units are orders of magnitude better than masks which are subject to issues for leakage with fit, beards, and the fella wearing them wanting to take them off at any chance they get. Hence why they are preferred PPE for heavy fabrication, mining site work, etc.
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27th Dec 2021, 11:53 AM #6Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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If you are working within a smallish shed (ie <100 m^2) for the cost of one of those expensive air flow shields you can buy a hell of a lot of ventilation. Then you don't need to use a fully enclosed face shield for grinding and you won't get as hot. In my shed (42m^2) I have two ventilation fans (both obtained as freebies) one fan is 1200 CFM and one (in my welding/fume bay) is 1600 CFM. Not only do they take care of welding fumes and grinding dust but they also exhaust solvents etc. I also have several dust/particles counters running continuously so I can asses dust levels.
I disagree with your suggestion that a P1 mask is enough for wood dust and P1 masks are best relegated to rubbish bins.
Wood dust has been a known carcinogen listed on the US National Institutes of Health Annual Report on Cancer since teh early 2000s. I have been testing dust levels in sheds and workplaces for about a decade and its pretty obvious that at least a P2 mask is needed, In fact simple face (nose and mouth) masks aren't considered as an appropriate first response for both MW and MW and is (like all PPE) as they are on the lowest rung of the hierarchy of control for OHS control of any dust. For a start many allergies can easily be triggered though the skin and eyes as I found out recently while milling some Silky Oak in the open air and came away itching all over but especially my feet as sawdust had fallen into my elastic sided steelcap boots. I ended up with welts on my feet from the irritation.
Just go over to the woodies dust forum to see the extent that highly informed woodies are taking to mitigate wood dust. The mantra by woodies in the know is "extraction at source" ie set up high air flow right next to or around the source of the dust. Thus the usd of 1500+ CFM extractor systems, 150mm ducting and careful redesigning of machinery hoods and outlets. The same mantra is not suited to many metal working operations because it can interfere with welding shielding gases etc but the overall shed air extractions still applies - 20 shed air changes per hour is cheap insurance against all manner of dust and vapours airisng from MW.
The reality is that ALL dust causes problems and is now rated as the 5th leading cause of death in the world - about the same number of people are though to have died in 2020 from dust as from COVID19. The issue is not just cancer but (just like COVID) almost all medical conditions are exacerbated by fine dust - strokes in particular are heavily implicated. Its not just straight-out death either, but like Long COVID the ongoing loss of quality of life and medical expenses runs into the trillions.
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27th Dec 2021, 12:25 PM #7Intermediate Member
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Thanks everyone. I think I will stick with 3M, an extra $500 for safety on an item that will last years is probably worth it. Also makes buying spare parts easier too. So even though I will be doing 99% woodworking, it sounds like adflo is the way to go? The adflo pump is just as good as the versaflo?
I am thinking about getting this unit:
https://weldinghelmetsonline.com.au/...ir-respiratory
Which comes with P2 filter. I think I would prefer a proper faceshield (rather than a welding helmut with the auto-darkening component removed) as it will be better vision and it will be what I wear most of the time.
Filter: I might weld and spray paint (rattle cans from bunnings) a few times per year - which is the preferred filter? Should I just run that filter full time you think it stress the motor unnecessarily?
And then I will just get separate helmet - should this be the one I get since its the cheapest?
https://weldinghelmetsonline.com.au/...45e9c26e&_ss=r
Then I think in terms of accessories I will just need some ear muffs and an extra battery
edit:
BobL - I really should add ventilation to my shed too - any recommendations on exhaust fans?
For those wondering why I am spending all this money on PARP and even for welding which I dont do much is that I get a lot of allergies and usually wear a respirator full time, even when using handtools and Im sick of it
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27th Dec 2021, 01:04 PM #8Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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Recommendations depend on
- the size of your shed
- what it is you do
- your budget
- how often you are in there.
For many DIYers, small shed, few large/lengthy dust making activities, averaging few hours a week in shed, a couple of ordinary bathroom type extractor fans might be enough.
For a BIG shed, with lots of time and dust I'd be looking at running something a swampy (without water) - Sterob has a thread on this see
https://metalworkforums.com/f65/t207...iling-fan-shed
Also to work effectively ventilation fans need to run for a long time so the noise might put you off. If you want quiet fans those uses by the "grow your own" community tend to be very quiet.
Have a look on ebay for "hydroponics centrifugal fan"
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27th Dec 2021, 01:12 PM #9
I respect your belief, but our mates at Safe Work have set the bar at P1. I am well aware of the heirarchy of control, and over here, in the real world, those on a budget or employers footing the bill, will unfortunately provide the minimum viable solution to the problem- P1. Elimination at the source is the best, but not practical in all situations, for a number of reasons.
In a perfect world though, we'd be working in something equivalent to a positive pressure Biosafety level 4 laboratory environment with HEPA filters and big bubble suits stuffed with cotton wool.
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27th Dec 2021, 02:55 PM #10Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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Well, I'd say your mates are well and truly out of touch as are many australian OHS dust standards.
Anyway it's not a belief, I've been following the international dust research literature and researching dust for 40 years at levels thousands of times lower that any OHS boffin. The wood dust standards in Australia are waaaay out of date, being based on english standards from of 1970s centred around pine, beech and oak. The standards make no allowance for Australian woods being more toxic , or for the ages or pre-existing health status of workers which are very important. There have been updates for MDF and certain woods like Western Red Cedar but these have been driven by the Canadians and Europeans.
The issue these days is less about what sort of dust it is and more about what size the dust is. A 2.5 micron or smaller dust particle causes problems whether it's wood, metal, rock or from teh wearing of care tyres (yes it's a major problem). It's interesting to note that the accepted safe level for dust in the community in 2021 is ~50x lower than that for the 1970s based wood dust standards. The current annual averages for general dust in Australian cities of is about 1/3rd the currently accepted safe level but now that is considered to be too high and is being actively worked on. This is becoming a driver to remove more and more combustion activities from our cities.
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2nd Jan 2022, 05:24 PM #11
Sorry guys going off on a tangent here
"Hence why they are preferred PPE for heavy fabrication, mining site work, etc."
Except for where I work they're doing their darnedest to get rid of them and force us into full face rubber mask's... a lovely thing in 70° heat high with extreme humidity.
Personally I've worn a Racal for 28yrs now and managed to keep my Pb in blood to well under 1/2 company policy levels(which is much lower than set by the WHO and SafeworkSA).
All the new guys and high those with higher LIB levels are forced to wear these rubber torture devices LIB is increasing purely because they rely on a perfect seal which is only possible when not sweating and perfectly clean shaved... pretty hard doing that with physically challenging work on 12hr shifts in a stinking hot metal refinery surrounded by constant watering down.....................................................................
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2nd Jan 2022, 10:02 PM #12
The protection factor from an adflo filter is 10x higher than that from a face mask (even when correctly fitted).
If the company pays, then a half mask would be an economic decision.
A full face mask would be a economic decision with eye protection slant.
I smell a rat.
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6th Jan 2022, 06:11 PM #13Intermediate Member
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Ordered Adflo with versaflo shield.
will get welding helmet in the future if I can justify it/do more welding
the earmuffs designed for the versaflo (and I think speedglas too) (3M H31P3) shield is rated at 28db. If wanting higher level or hearing protection the 3M peltor X series muffs can be added with adapter 3M XA007702625 Z3AF/2.
just for future reference if this gets searched by someone else
ebay has $100 off code at the moment so got the adflo with m207 for about $16xx
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