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Thread: Losing weight

  1. #16
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    A point about some low fat products.

    I am type 2 diabetic and darling wife thought she was helping and purchased low fat yogurt for me.
    I read it's contents chart (with a magnifying glass as its so small).

    That low fat yogurt also contains 37% sugar. Read the labels !!!

    I have taken VitD3 with a zinc tab for yonks and I don't get flu or that other nasty we won't talk about here.

    My wife who does not believe in Vit D3 is currently sick as a dog with flu but has not passed it to me.

    Dr Ken Berry is one of the online docs I found early info on D3.
    I too have followed Ken Berry for a long time.

    Dr John Campell-
    John is not a medical doctor per se, but holds a doctorate in nurse education and has been around for years before this current problem. He is communicates in with medicos all over the world whom he was worked with.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF9...xg3QIBupFtBDxg

    Worth a look!!

    Grahame

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post

    Last Friday I fell over on the front veranda while hosting my family for morning tea. It was like something straight out of a 3 Stooges episode. It started when I dropped half a cup of coffee onto mum's lap and she threw her arms up into the air knocking 2 plates off the veranda table onto the floor. I raced off to get cloths etc and my shirt tails got caught in mum's walker and I fell over knocking the grandies fairy garden tray and all its bits and pieces flying and I landed on top of some small rocks and pieces of glass cutting my right cheek and left knee (nothing serious). The body parts that hurt the most were my left knee and ankle, and right cheekbone. Plus it gave me a headache. I thought the pain in my left knee would seriously set me back but I was able to go to the gym yesterday and push the next level of weights without any problems. If anything it was easier???
    Oh my ... Bob, that is something!
    Hope you get better soon. If it was me, my pride would be severely bruised



    [QUOTE] That low fat yogurt also contains 37% sugar. Read the labels !!! [/QUOTE]. (I wonder why the quote does not work)

    Dairy, be it yogurt or milk or cheese, I always buy full cream. In fact I am very happy that now we have those 1.5 L Full cream milk with the cream on top. Super!

    If you buy dairy that is low fat, you buy more sugar.
    And the tragedy is that fat is not the problem, sugar is.
    All that nonsense they have rattled on for 60 years is completely false.
    Dietary fat, the one you eat, does not "make you fat", nor does it increase your cholesterol. If anything it increase your satiety and helps you to stop when necessary.
    Your enemy is carbohydrates. Bread, pasta, rice, fruits, veggies, not to mention all the manufactured garbage coming out of a factory.

    Go into a Keto or better on a carnivore diet to see type 2 diabetes resolve. It is much easier than you think ... or so it seems anyway

    https://youtu.be/RZtsLQgUE9s
    Civilized man is the only animal clever enough to manufacture its own food,
    and the only animal stupid enough to eat it.
    Barry Groves

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by shedhappens View Post
    I also have lost 10 kgs.....
    ...and I found it....

    Marc, you are definitely a passionate convert!!!

  4. #19
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    Wont be long and you will all be eating insects so get your fill of meat and milk now while you can
    https://blog.csiro.au/bringing-edibl...-aussie-diets/
    https://www.spectator.com.au/2022/09...e-fed-insects/
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...h=357aa5dd7fe3
    Vote with your mouths to stop cows farting

  5. #20
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    Marc,

    Please note that I am not saying "you are wrong". I am suggesting that people should think critically about these issues.

    Your thesis appears to be that switching to the carnivore diet or a keto diet will make weight loss easy and fix all "lifestyle" diseases.


    Why Eating Less & Exercising More is BAD Advice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT2cytJaoxI)
    Talks about the importance of insulin in weight / obesity. Somewhat discordant in that he rubbishes calorie reduction in the first part, but then ultimately comes back to it being necessary in the end.
    Also mentions fasting being bad - there is evidence that fasting / intermittent fasting improves insulin sensitivity
    He also mentions exercise (in the same breath as eating less) resulting in hunger - the data is a bit mixed, but overall exercise tends to suppress appetite if anything.
    (nothing about carnivore diet)

    You mention Masai and Inuit peoples etc. What is their life expectency? Low.

    Low incidence of cardiovascular disease among the Inuit--what is the evidence? - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12535749/

    Most of the studies of the Masai don't actual document well what they eat.
    Red meat consumption and its association with hypertension and hyperlipidaemia among adult Maasai pastoralists of Ngorongoro Conservation Area, Tanzania
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7263614/

    This paper found that more meat intake amongst the Maasai was associated with higher cholesterol levels
    However, like most dietary research, it is poor, relying on self reporting (which is never accurate).

    It is difficult when looking at small populations such as the Maasai. Are differences due to diet, other "lifestyle" factors (such as exercise), or genetic?
    There are genetic variations/mutations that result in vast differences in risk of atherosclerosis. E.g. Familial Hypercholesterolaemia (occurs in about 1 in 300 people, but varies geographically) causes a substantial increase in atherosclerosis / premature atherosclerosis. There are mutations that result in vast decreases in risk.

    Daily energy expenditure and cardiovascular risk in Masai, rural and urban Bantu Tanzanians - https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/44/2/121
    "The most conspicuous finding for the Masai was the extremely high energy expenditure, corresponding to 2565 kcal/day over basal requirements, compared with 1500 kcal/day in the rural and 891 kcal/day for the urban Bantu. Mean body mass index among the Masai was lower than the rural and urban Bantu. Mean systolic blood pressure of the Masai was also lower compared with their rural and urban Bantu counterparts. The Masai revealed a favourable lipid profile."

    Much of the supposed evidence about the Maasai (or Masai) and atherosclerosis comes from very old papers.
    E.g. "The Masai’s Protection Against Atherosclerosis" - https://sci-hub.st/10.1159/000162229
    This paper from 1970 looked at a few things. 10 (Ten) autopsies... Some testing of cholesterol absorption on standard Masai diet and a test diet.
    Nothing in the paper provides any evidence that a mostly milk diet is responsible for any difference in atherosclerosis rates, nor that atherosclerosis rates really are different.

    MANN, G. V., SPOERRY, A., GARY, M., & JARASHOW, D. (1972). ATHEROSCLEROSIS IN THE MASAI. American Journal of Epidemiology, 95(1), 26–37. https://sci-hub.st/10.1093/oxfordjournals.aje.a121365
    Paper from 1971
    This paper looked at 50 autopsies. "—The hearts and aortae of 50 Masai men were collected at autopsy. These pastoral people are exceptionally active and fit and they consume diets of milk and meat. The intake of animal fat exceeds that of American men. Measurements of the aorta showed extensive atherosclerosis with lipid infiltration and fibrous changes but very few complicated lesions. The coronary arteries showed intimal thickening by atherosclerosis which equaled that of old U.S. men. The Masai vessels enlarge with age to more than compensate for this disease. It is speculated that the Masai are protected from their atherosclerosis by physical fitness which causes their coronary vessels to be capacious."
    42 (out of 50) of the men were aged less than 60

    Mann, G. V., Shaffer, R. D., Anderson, R. S., Sandstead, H. H., Prendergast, H., Mann, J. C., … Dicks, K. (1964). Cardiovascular disease in the masai. Journal of Atherosclerosis Research, 4(4), 289–312. doi:10.1016/s0368-1319(64)80041-7
    https://sci-hub.st/10.1016/S0368-1319(64)80041-7
    This 1964 paper looked at 400 Masai people
    Only 3 of the subjects were aged greater than 55 years
    The supposed evidence for atherosclerosis was performing an electrocardiograph (ECG). This does not test for atherosclerosis. It can show (with a low rate of sensitivity and specificity) evidence of large old heart attacks. Most people who have had a heart attack do not have clear ECG changes.


    You linked Keto Diet -vs- DASH Diet [bad news ahead] New Study!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZtsLQgUE9s)
    He makes a lot about reduced medication dose by X percent etc..
    There were 24 people in each intervention arm...

    The paper this video is about is: https://www.annfammed.org/content/21/3/256#sec-10
    This vaguely interesting, but this was 94 people for 16 weeks.
    There is no data about sustained weight loss or long term health effects.

    Have you looked at the video description?
    "
    LIES MY DOCTOR TOLD ME: https://amzn.to/3CgUbo8
    Get Daily Minerals: https://bit.ly/MineralFix
    Eat Real MEAT: https://bit.ly/USmeatDiscount (discount = BERRY)
    Eat Real Salt: http://bit.ly/RealSalts
    "
    i.e. this generous fine doctor has skin in the game... He is selling product. (Hint, not only is he selling physical product, but he has 2.6million youtube subscribers - your eyes are making him money as well).


    CARNIVORE Diet (Beginner's Guide) All You Need to Get Started - 2023
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e56gVwMFVPw
    Description (again, there is a financial interest):
    "
    Daily MINERALS: http://bit.ly/MineralFix (Discount Code applied)
    Eat REAL SALT: http://bit.ly/RealSalts
    LIES MY DOCTOR TOLD ME: https://amzn.to/2YxwHK9
    COMMON SENSE LABS Book: commonsenselabsbook.com
    Carnivore Book: https://amzn.to/2JmHnXR (kindle/audible/paperback)
    Carnivore Book: https://amzn.to/33uv0zJ (kindle/ /paperback)
    Eat Real MEAT: https://bit.ly/USmeatDiscount (discount = BERRY)
    "

    I suspect you might have read "The History of All-Meat Diets"
    https://www.diagnosisdiet.com/full-a...%20with%20beef
    That page mentions various studies but does not provide actual sources / references.
    It also fails to critically appraise those studies.
    "In fact, researchers went so far as to collect and examine the hearts of 50 Masai who had dropped dead, and found no evidence of a heart attack in a single one." I mention this study above (Mann et al 1971) - most of the subjects died violent or infectious deaths. The intimation they "dropped dead" is false and this phrase is being used to suggest a particular narrative not supported by the (not actually referenced) study.


    The whole diet / "nutrition" space is littered with poor data (noting it is actually difficult to study)


    Most people lie to themselves all the time about how much they eat and how much activity they do.


    Virtually all the data is that people end up gaining weight again in the future (whatever the intervention is).


    There does appear to be general agreement that:

    • less processed / less refined foods are better
    • simple carbohydrates (sugar) are problematic
    • The standard western diet is not good / optimal - but look at what people actually eat (what people is eat is not what the various dietary guidelines advise).



    There is a very long distance between "eat less processed foods" and "vegetables are bad for you".

    The best evidence is that cholesterol levels are mostly genetic (unless you have an atrocious diet).
    This does not mean diet is not important, merely that you cannot measure how good a diet is with a simple blood test, and that you can't change your cholesterol much with diet.

    Cholesterol is only one out of many risk factors for atherosclerosis. It is a small, but important, part of the puzzle.


    Again please note that I am not saying "you are wrong". I am suggesting critical thought these issues.

    I also suggest we don't change population health advice on the basis of small poorly performed studies, old (small) studies with limited diagnostic tools, motivational speakers with financial interest, and half truths and false information (many "facts" are just wrong).


    Now unfortunately my youtube recommendations will be littered by motivational nutrition speakers instead of metalwork videos...

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Read, think and read some more ... then act.
    It is for our own good.
    Marc
    Yes, you should.
    CHRIS

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by pippin88 View Post
    Marc,

    Please note that I am not saying "you are wrong". I am suggesting that people should think critically about these issues.
    Absolutely.
    Keep thinking.
    Meantime the advice to the masses is to keep on eating the same food that made the whole of the western world obese and sick.

    By the way ... what you call "my" hypothesis, it is not mine. It is the product of generations of scientist who challenged the dietary recommendation of corrupt and ignorant politician, ill advised by likey more corrupt and ignorant medicos.

    You have the proof in this very thread, a few post above. Someone following the official advice given to diabetics: "eat low fat", buys low fat milk.
    Take the fat out of milk yet keep all the sugar. Now there is good advice!

    The whole of the dietary advice in the last 70 years is driven by commercial and political interest. None takes the population interest at heart.
    We have reduced fat intake, we have been eating "wholemeal", we have exercised more, yet we have been getting fatter and sick.

    The very start, when people were dropping dead from smoking, was sidetracked and blamed on saturated fats. Very effectively, so much so that it is still repeated today.
    As a consequence, lard, gee, tallow and other very healthy animal fats were replaced by oils that had been used for lubricant and paint manufacture. If you watch the video by Nina Teicholz, see one of them below ... you will probably learn that the whole "healthy" advice on vegetable oil, was concocted not for our health but to promote the sale of an oil that is not fit for human consumption, and in the process poisoned half of humankind. Then came Margarine, Crisco etc. "Be modern! they said.

    By all means, google Nina and try to find some dirt on her ... after all, everyone has some dirt hidden, including me, thanks to Google... That wouldn't make any difference in what she has discovered in 10 years of research.

    I see that you are saying the same mistakes repeated by millions on cholesterol. I can not blame you, you are not alone and have a claque of doctors behind you.
    At this stage I should probably say that I am not "anti doctors" ... my wife is a doctor and a specialist, and so is my brother, my sister in law, my brother in law and one of my many grandchildren. Two of my daughters are, one physiotherapist and the other chief scientific officer in a lab.

    Yet when it comes to cholesterol, the medical profession is simply repeating what they are told. They are not properly trained in the metabolism and biochemistry. If you want know more than your cardiologist about cholesterol, here is a priceless video about a specialist that is explaining it to a practicing GP.

    Before I go, I must apologize for not answering all of your allegation. It would be very time consuming since it is a mixture of half truth and falsehoods that are worthy of a better cause.

    Watch Nina's video and here is the one about Cholesterol by Rob Lustig. .

    If you have time check this one out about meat in your diet ...

    Best of luck with your diet research. Remember that you can find pro and con about everything, including Vegans, and Keto.
    By the way, I must disclose my interest in this cause. My local butcher gives me a hefty discount to promote meat consumption ...
    Civilized man is the only animal clever enough to manufacture its own food,
    and the only animal stupid enough to eat it.
    Barry Groves

  8. #23
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    And a bit more about cholesterol

    Will fat we eat kill us?

    Civilized man is the only animal clever enough to manufacture its own food,
    and the only animal stupid enough to eat it.
    Barry Groves

  9. #24
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    Marc,

    I used the word thesis (meaning = a statement or theory that is put forward as a premise to be maintained or proved).
    You posted this thread, and have added further posts that a carnivore diet results in no heart disease, no diabetes, and that current dietary advice is the "exact opposite of what needs to be done to live a healthy long life"

    I am not conducting research (meaning = the systematic investigation into and study of materials and sources in order to establish facts and reach new conclusions).
    You are not conducting research either. It is a common modern problem that people think reading on the internet and watching a few videos constitutes research. It doesn't.
    Research involves the application of the scientific method.

    "You have the proof in this very thread, a few post above." n (sample size) of 1 is not proof. Anecdote is not proof.

    Please note that I am not an adherent to any particular diet. I eat a varied diet. I eat meat and animals fats. I buy full fat milk. I eat vegetables and grains. I make some attempt to avoid processed foods and refined sugars. I mostly cook with olive oil.
    Tonight I will be eating chicken in cream with sun dried tomatoes.

    If you google Nina Teicholz you will be able to find multiple critiques of her work. Not "dirt", but actual analysis of her claims and looking at her source materials and her conclusions.
    A common problem in reporting, and in research, is claiming a paper shows one thing when in fact it does not show that, or shows something else. Teicholz's work is full of this.
    This is why I went to the effort of tracking down the papers about the Maasai and looking at what they really say.

    "I see that you are saying the same mistakes repeated by millions on cholesterol. I can not blame you, you are not alone and have a claque of doctors behind you."
    Please inform me what this mistake is? And provide references.

    You allege that I make allegations that are "mixture of half truth and falsehoods that are worthy of a better cause."
    Please be specific. What allegations have I made that are half truth and falsehoods?
    I posted original references / research (with links to make it easy for you to have a look.

    I also think that sugar intake is a major problem.
    Note dietary guidelines do not recommend high intake of simple sugar. The carbohydrates that are recommended are complex carbohydrates with low glycaemic index.

    I am not going to watch multiple youtube videos. They are not a good way of analyzing data (no references etc).

    Particularly when there is a clear financial motivation.
    E.g. Understand Your CHOLESTEROL PANEL & Metabolic Health Tests - The ULTIMATE Guide | Dr. Rob Lustig
    This a channel by "Levels" - have a look. Levels is a product / service.
    Dr Lustig makes a number of claims in the first 7 minutes that are dubious and/or incorrect. He claims that statins (treatment for LDL) came before treatment for triglycerides was available and this is why the focus has been on LDL. This is simply false. Lovostatin was approved in 1987 (the first statin). Clofibrate was approved in 1963, bezafibrate in 1977, Gemfibrozil in 1982 (all drugs to treat triglycerides). He uses this claim about statins being the first medication to promote the idea that LDL has been focused upon (rather than triglycerides) because of this timing. This is false.
    He talks a lot about triglycerides, but the evidence linking triglycerides and atherosclerosis poor. Lowering triglycerides has generally not resulted in any significant reduction of atherosclerotic events.
    High dose icosapent ethyl (Omega-3) has evidence for reducing atherosclerotic risk - this may actually be independent of triglycerides.
    They are correct that triglycerides respond reasonably to dietary change, mostly reduction in carbohydrates. (Note that triglycerides are not cholesterol. They are a form of lipid, not cholesterol).

    Again I am not suggesting "meat is bad". What I do suggest is that the narrative that eating a certain diet will prevent all disease or cure disease is unproven and unfounded. Food has a definite impact on health, however it is far from the only factor. The narrative that people used to be "healthy" before modern western diet is untrue. People died of cancer, heart disease, and had diabetes. The majority of people died at younger ages from infections and injuries however. You need to live long enough to get atherosclerosis, and most cancers.

    I am going to leave this here and do not intend to respond further.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by pippin88 View Post
    Marc,
    ... The narrative that people used to be "healthy" before modern western diet is untrue. People died of cancer, heart disease, and had diabetes. The majority of people died at younger ages from infections and injuries however. You need to live long enough to get atherosclerosis, and most cancers.

    I am going to leave this here and do not intend to respond further.
    True ... egyptians had all our same so called modern diseases, because they ate mainly wheat.
    Carnivore tribes going back millions of years did not.

    Most if not all modern ailment, ie diabetes, obesity, arteriosclerosis, cancer, alzheimer etc, can be strongly linked back to the diet recommended by our health system. And reversing them in no small degree can be done by going the opposite of the dietary "guidelines".

    And last but not least, people must make a living, be it by taking grants, funding their research, payment from customers, or donation by acolytes. This is the reality of our capitalist system. No one works for free. If you think that commercial interest disqualifies a person from making a statement, even when they disclose it, you are being disingenuous and don't understand how today's scientific research works.
    Civilized man is the only animal clever enough to manufacture its own food,
    and the only animal stupid enough to eat it.
    Barry Groves

  11. #26
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    Marc, your evangelical approach to this topic prevents anyone having any sort of balanced discussion with you about weight loss. My apologies to those who have contributed but I just had to say it.
    CHRIS

  12. #27
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    Yes Chris, I hear you.
    Labelling someone's approach as evangelical is often used when the person is saying things one does not want to hear.
    Interestingly enough, alternative arguments do not follow.

    My interest in this matter can be compared to the kid that grows up and realises that Santa does not exist.
    Eating healthy does no longer mean low fat, plenty of veggies and fruits, rice and pasta, multigrain sourdough bread, vegetable oils and the rest of the false promises, the rest of the false hope, the rest of the fraud.

    If you find out that saturated fat is not the cause of heart disease, that in fact it is the substitution of saturated fat with vegetable oils that is the culprit. When you understand that it is also tobacco smoke and general pollution that triggers the oxidative stress that kills. When you understand that we have been laid for many decades, and to top it of, fed another fraud that is statins, you may be as evangelical as I am. Or may be not ... I don't know you.

    Here is a video by Dr Paul Mason, Australian Doctor that explains in lay terms the real cause of plaque and coronary obstructions that lead to heart attacks.
    There are many and not so recent studies, one in particular who's results have been suppressed from the seventies to 2015 ... that lead to similar conclusions but that not surprisingly have not made headlines nor changed doctors advise on the subject. The business of statins is of gargantuan proportions and big pharma realised that rather than launching yet another product, it was cheaper to lower the age of the patient that allegedly needs statins, and also reduce the so called normal level of LDL, to justify hooking up another patient to the money making machine.

    Enjoy:

    Civilized man is the only animal clever enough to manufacture its own food,
    and the only animal stupid enough to eat it.
    Barry Groves

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Carnivore tribes going back millions of years did not.
    Just how much medical data do we have on Carnivore tribes from millions of years ago?
    If google is to be believed we have parts of about 6000ish people over most of that time frame.
    So how would one know what the other 99.9999% of them died from?
    If you don't know that how can you make broad population wide statements?

    Damn it wasn't that long ago 50% of people died in childhood.

  14. #29
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    See the video "The evidence for a proper human diet" with Dr Eades, a few post above.
    Today with stable isotope analysis anyone can determine from remains, what the animal or human ate.
    Furthermore there are many other indicators used by paleontologist to determine the age and state of health of the specimen. There is nothing new nor controversial in that.
    Bone density, shape, teeth enamel, wear on them etc.
    Only vegan on social media like to argue that ancient humans died at 30 and were all vegetarians. Both false assumptions. Plenty of Neandertal and even older remains that died at age 60 or 70.
    There is one branch of the humanoids that was fully vegetarian but it devolved and became extinct hominins Australopithecus. And some Neandertal also were vegetarians but disappeared because were eaten by the others.
    Civilized man is the only animal clever enough to manufacture its own food,
    and the only animal stupid enough to eat it.
    Barry Groves

  15. #30
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    I didn't question any of that.
    Yes you have age and state of health of the specimen etc From that you can infer that others had the same diet. That doesn't give you cause of dead across the population which you claim to have. I doubt in most cases you even have cause of death of the specimen.

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